Transcript - Triple J Hack with Dave Marchese

DAVE MARCHESE: Is Australia trying to control the world's Internet? Elon Musk thinks that's what's happening. The owner of social media platform X is still lashing out at our Prime Minister, our eSafety Commissioner, even Senator Jacqui Lambie. There's a court case underway this week where X is trying to argue why it should not have to hide footage of a Sydney stabbing that's been spread online. So, how much authority do national governments have to enforce their own laws in online spaces that involve everyone around the world? Let's ask someone in an official role. Communications Minister Michelle Rowland is with us now. 

Minister, thank you very much for coming on Hack. Is it realistic for Australia to order what content is taken down from the global Internet? Like, not only what people in Australia can see, but what people around the world can see as well?

MICHELLE ROWLAND, MINISTER FOR COMMUNICATIONS: Well, I think we need to step back for a moment because this is precisely the question that is before the court. But I want to make it clear that the actions that have been taken by eSafety in relation to issuing a notice to the social media platforms in relation to removing certain content has been done pursuant to a law of Australia. And that law enables the independent regulator where they have determined that there is certain content that is classified in a certain way. So, eSafety has determined that its powers enable it to be able to order for this content to be removed. The government backs eSafety in the exercise of its powers here, but the issues that you raise are precisely matters that the court will be determining. So, I won't be commenting on them specifically.

MARCHESE: I mean, there are experts, though, raising questions about global takedown orders. One has written a piece saying, "if Australian courts have the right to decide what people overseas can view online, should we be equally happy for courts in China, Russia, Iran, to determine what Australians can see and post in Australia?" Isn't that a fair concern?

ROWLAND: Well, again, I think, as eSafety has pointed out, you can't eradicate damaging content from the Internet entirely. But again, I come back to the fundamental issue here. Australia has long had a system of classification rules and they are ones to which the eSafety regime is tied. Certain types of content which have been determined to be ones that we don't want people being able to access. Let's be clear, some of that content includes child sexual abuse material or pro-terror content. A democratically-elected parliament has made these determinations. An independent regulator is implementing the act, as is their responsibility. We'll await the court findings.

MARCHESE: I mean, there are some listeners who are concerned about censorship. They're telling us this, they're asking, "where is the line here?" Obviously, with really abhorrent material, whether it's child abuse material, they back that being removed from the Internet, but in other situations, they're not so sure whether it's setting a bad precedent. What do you say to those people?

ROWLAND: We have a classification system in Australia which has determined that the depictions of real violence that are likely to cause offence to a reasonable adult, the child's sexual abuse material, that certain terror content, are the types of content that we have determined as a parliament should not be available to Australians. And I think in that respect, whilst, of course, the Internet has never been an ungoverned space, it's always been subject to, whether it be privacy rules or defamation or competition rules, certain types of misleading or deceptive conduct. The fact is, Australia chose a number of years ago to pass a law that went to this precise issue and said, whilst the Internet is an area that is governed by a number of other laws, we have decided to put in a specific law in relation to specific content. And again, the Australian Government backs eSafety in taking the measures that it has deemed necessary in order to fulfil the requirements under that act.

MARCHESE: Senator Jacqui Lambie is urging politicians to delete their X accounts. She's had a war of words with Elon Musk. He's called her an enemy to the Australian people. She says he should be in jail. She's got rid of her X account. Will you get rid of yours?

ROWLAND: Well, Senator Lambie is a smart and considered person and has made her own decision in that regard. For my part, I take a very similar view to that of Premier Chris Minns, which is these platforms enable us to communicate with our constituents whatever judgement you make about them. In some respects, they are embedded in the media ecosystem. So, I've taken the view not to, but I respect Senator Lambie's view and her decision to do that. And I'll respect any other politician who chooses the same or different.

MARCHESE: Are you worried about what all of this is doing for Australia's reputation? Like the Prime Minister calling Elon Musk an arrogant billionaire, Tanya Plibersek saying he's egotistical, Greens Senator Sarah Hanson Young calling him a narcissistic cowboy. Obviously, Elon Musk has been firing back with similar heated language. It's not a good look. Should the government be trying to tone this down a bit?

ROWLAND: Well, again, I think we need to step back and take a view on what we are trying to achieve here. What are the outcomes?

MARCHESE: So, should politicians tone down their language while this is all playing out?

ROWLAND: Look, I completely back the Prime Minister in standing up not only for Australian values but for Australian law, and he is absolutely right there. At the same time, your listeners should be reassured that the number of issues that are weighing, I think, on many people's minds with respect to online harms are ones in which the government is prosecuting in a very measured and methodical way.

MARCHESE: Minister, one last thing. HECS help debts. Young Australians are gearing up for the second-highest indexation rate on record. Is your government going to offer some relation for students in the budget?

ROWLAND: Well, certainly we recognise that this is a massive issue and the Minister for Education has been leading the Australian Universities Accord process and that's a massive review of higher education.

MARCHESE: And it's recommended some changes. So, can we expect to see some changes in the budget?

ROWLAND: Indeed. That has made recommendations about how we can make the HECS help system fairer and both the Prime Minister and Treasurer have said that we are examining this very closely at the moment as to how we can make HECS fairer for students and we'll have more to say and I'm sure the Minister for Education will respond to the Accord's recommendations very shortly.

MARCHESE: Ok. Communications Minister Michelle Rowland, thank you very much for joining us on Hack.

ROWLAND: Thank you.