Radio Interview with 2GB Drive

SUBJECTS: Mobile Black Spots, Mobile Requirements in Planning, Optus Cybersecurity Incident.

CHRIS O’KEEFE, HOST: Now, as we've been speaking about all week, Sydney's mobile phone reception leaves a lot to be desired. We've had phone calls from Schofields, The Ponds, Kellyville, Quakers Hill, Little Bay, Narrabeen, the Hawkesbury, on and on and on. The people of 2GB have been calling in saying that their mobile phone reception continues to drop out and it is very unreliable. Now I know Michelle Rowland. She is the new Federal Minister for Communications. She's also the Member for Greenway, around the Blacktown area, so she knows these suburbs and this issue well and she's kind enough to join us on the programme this afternoon. G'day, Michelle.

MICHELLE ROWLAND, MINISTER FOR COMMUNICATIONS: Hi there, Chris.

O’KEEFE: Minister, firstly, you're in government now. What do you plan to do to fix this?

ROWLAND: Firstly, just to note in your intro, the comments that your listeners are making correlates precisely with the latest complaints figures released by the Telecommunications Industry Ombudsman; we've had mobile complaints increased to around 40 per cent of all complaints, and it's a massive increase on last year. And I think this is driven by a couple of factors.

First, as you said, I represent an area around northwest Sydney, a huge growth area, and just to simplify the laws of physics, the more people you have moving into an area, the less capacity you have on existing mobile infrastructure assets. But in answer to your question, there are two key things we're doing and it highlights two things that really surprised me when I came into the portfolio. First, the lack of collaboration between the telco providers and planning authorities like councils. And second, the lack of measurement about what kind of mobile coverage is out there.

So we're doing two things in response to that, Chris. We have in place a reinvigorated collaboration exercise, if you would call it that, between the local government authorities and the telcos to bring them together in this forum, to say that this is not good enough, we need to streamline this. We know we need to balance the interests of communities, but one of the interests of communities is to have mobile coverage.

The second is we took an election commitment to the Australian people for an independent coverage audit right across Australia. What we're doing is we're leveraging off existing assets. So for Australia Post vehicles that go to every part of Australia, we are putting tracking devices on these so that we get a true independent coverage map for the first time. With those two things in place, I think we are going to be able to see a good difference. But in the meantime, I want to reassure your listeners that this is a top priority. I know that not only as Minister, but as a local member.

O’KEEFE: Well, let's go to the northwest, in your electorate, just for instance, The Ponds -

ROWLAND: Yes.

O’KEEFE: Tens of thousands of homes get built. You put the power poles up, you put the water in. So when people put their keys into their brand new homes, the utilities are ready to go. Why on earth is there no mobile phone reception there? I would have thought water, power, mobile phone towers, all go hand in hand.

ROWLAND: Believe it or not, Chris, when we have rules for infrastructure planning, there's energy, there's even the NBN, there's requirements to make these new estates NBN ready, but there is no requirement to have adequate mobile services and this is totally unsatisfactory. That is why we need to bring these carriers and the planners, the developers, all together to say, you're putting in these new suburbs, these new developments. Yes, you want schools, you want hospitals, you want roads. But infrastructure isn't just that anymore, Chris. Everyone relies on their mobile service and that came true during the pandemic as well. So many small businesses, students, people working from home. Again, I question how many of your listeners don't even have a landline anymore?

O’KEEFE: Lots.

ROWLAND: There are so many people who don't even have a landline, so they rely on their mobile.

O’KEEFE: But Minister, we know all this. So then, if there is no requirement that the telcos, or the developers, or local councils, need to put mobile towers up to ensure decent coverage, is there a law you can pass to force them to do it?

ROWLAND: Well, what we are doing is we are bringing these entities together in a really constructive way to say, look, we want you to utilise the planning powers that you've got, but also telcos, we expect you to come in and do this. Currently, the only regulation that applies in this area is really about misleading or deceptive conduct. Many of your listeners might remember when they got their first mobile phones decades ago. That was one of the key selling aspects, you were being sold either coverage from one mobile operator or another, giving representations about their coverage, but that's just not good enough anymore. So we're bringing these together in a really practical sense -

O’KEEFE: Sorry to interrupt, Minister.

ROWLAND: Yes?

O’KEEFE: Are you saying that what you're doing is getting people around the table to talk about it?

ROWLAND: No, we are getting people to agree to a new set of standards.

O’KEEFE: How likely is that?

ROWLAND: I think it is, well, it has to happen, Chris. It's completely unacceptable that this has been going on for so long -

O’KEEFE: But if you're not going to force them to do it, you're relying on the goodwill of the telcos and the local councils.

ROWLAND: Well, it's not there are currently, there's already rules in the law about ways in which there needs to be consultation, there needs to be balancing community interests, because I understand there are many people who don't want mobile towers, who don't want 5G cells near their homes, but at the same time, Chris, people expect this to get done. We are going to get this done with the telcos and we are going to ensure that in future we actually have adequate mobile coverage in these new estates.

Now, I also point out that this is in the interests of the mobile operators to actually provide adequate service. These are organisations that should want people to use their networks and if they are not going to come to the table, we will have a very deep dialogue with these organisations to say, well, what are you actually doing for the community?

O’KEEFE: Are they going to be scared of a "very deep dialogue" Minister?

ROWLAND: Look, I think it's very clear that the public expects this to happen. We have had, for example, in The Ponds, years and years, where we haven't had approvals at a state level. I want to make it clear, Chris, I actually approached this as the local member, not as the Minister for Communications, because when we started years ago, it was in response to the number of surveys and the feedback that I was getting, including around areas like Schofields and Riverstone as well, where so many, tens of thousands of people have been moving in. So if we do that on, just for one tower, it's completely unsatisfactory.

O’KEEFE: Imagine replicating that all around Australia, because that's what's happened.

ROWLAND: Exactly, exactly. Which is why we need this dialogue to be ongoing with the telcos and we will definitely, definitely, keep this as a top priority. I must say that this continues to be probably the biggest set of complaints that I still receive, not only as a local member, but also as the Minister for Communications now.

O’KEEFE: But Minister, you must understand my scepticism; deep dialogue around a table, making sure we're continuing conversations with the telco. That's what happens all the time. The one at The Ponds, I think, has been going for six years, hasn't it?

ROWLAND: Exactly. And the reasons for that is because of this amount of red tape that's existed between the planners and the telcos.

O’KEEFE: So under the Labor government right now, what's going to change if all you're going to do is just continue to talk with them?

ROWLAND: It's not just talking, Chris, it is this is ensuring that we have an understanding from the telcos of their expectations. We have an independent coverage audit and we know that the Telecommunications Industry Ombudsman continues to receive these high numbers of complaints. And we are not going to just let those complaints sit there -

O’KEEFE: Why don't you legislate?

ROWLAND: We are taking action -

O’KEEFE: Or an enforceable code of conduct or something like that?

ROWLAND: That's a really good point. And there are two issues that go to that. The first is that it is actually when telcos actually measure coverage, they're doing this essentially on a hypothetical basis, so essentially measured in a lab and not measured in the real world. The first thing we need to do is to get that coverage audit done. The second is ensuring that not only do we have this understanding between the telcos and the councils and set protocols in place, as a result of the work that we've been doing in barely over 100 days. We've got these protocols in place, that are actually met. Then we can balance those community needs against the telcos actually taking action and making sure that they've got adequate coverage.

O’KEEFE: Why don't you just pay the telcos to put the towers up?

ROWLAND: Well, if there was a limitless bucket of money, we would. We already have a mobile black spot program and that is primarily for regional areas, but also for peri-urban areas as well. Some of those areas that you mention, sort of on the outskirts of our suburbs, are ones that are experiencing a high level of dissatisfaction with their coverage.

O’KEEFE: But I wouldn't call Quakers Hill or Kellyville peri-urban or on the outskirts.

ROWLAND: When you talk about these outer suburbs, peri-urban is sort of defined as these areas, sort of the outer metro areas. But I completely understand why people would say, well, if I only live 45 minutes away from Sydney CBD, why don't I have adequate mobile coverage?

O’KEEFE: It's a fair point isn't it?

ROWLAND: And that's what we've been hearing. Absolutely, fair point. But I do want to assure your listeners, Chris, that this has been one of the top priorities of this government. We took a policy to the election and within barely 100 days, we have managed to make substantial progress, actually sitting down with the telcos, with the planning authorities, to actually try and get improvements in this area. They're going to make a practical difference.

O’KEEFE: I don't hold much hope for it if it's deep dialogue and sitting around a table, but I wish you all the best with it, because the proof will be in the pudding, Minister Rowland, whether or not you can actually fix these black spots. Just very quickly before I let you go; Optus, this is an incredible breach of privacy.

ROWLAND: It is. It's something that I think this hasn't been experienced before in Australia at this scale. It is something that I think people have every right to be concerned about, because when you look at the kinds of personal information, they are ones that are very sensitive; passports, date of birth, that kind of identity that can go direct to identity theft. And I would like all your listeners, please Chris, to be vigilant. This is exactly the kind of fodder that scammers prey on. We already know how they are utilising these kinds of scams by phone and text as well. We've got, you talk about putting enforcement in place. We have put in codes that are enforceable to ensure that telcos do what they need to do to identify, trace and block scams. We have already managed to block something like half a billion calls in a very short space of time. But, Chris, these are sophisticated criminals and I want all of your listeners, please, if you don't recognise a number, you do not have to answer it. If you receive a text that looks suspicious and looks like it's a scam, it probably is a scam because Australians are losing billions of dollars every year and I'm very concerned that this breach means that a lot of that sensitive information is going to be utilised by bad actors.

O’KEEFE: Good on you. Thank you so much. Minister Rowland, I appreciate you coming on the programme.

ROWLAND: Pleasure.

O’KEEFE: That is the federal Communications Minister and the Member for Greenway in Sydney's northwest, Michelle Rowland.