Interview with Sarah Cumming, ABC Gold Coast

SARAH CUMMING, HOST: Federal Communications Minister Michelle Rowland joins me in the studio this morning. Good morning to you, Minister. 

First of all, you're here on the Gold Coast to open a new Australia Post parcel facility at Arundel, which we will talk about shortly. But let's start with the 3G network. Now, the Government has set up a Working Group to ensure a safer 3G shutdown. But how concerned are you - I think this figure is still at 283,000 – that Australians are still at risk of not being able to make a Triple Zero call when the 3G network shuts down? It is a great concern. 

MICHELLE ROWLAND, MINISTER FOR COMMUNICATIONS: Good morning. What is encouraging is that since the beginning of the year, when the Government and industry set up this working group to bring those numbers down, and, I should stress, the initial estimate was around 740,000 devices and the updated figure actually has come down to around 205,000 devices, as the latest figures. But that's still too high. Exactly as you say, access to Triple Zero and confidence of Australians in Triple Zero is absolutely vital. And that's why the Government has taken this step of intervening with industry.

We are pleased that there has been more outreach that's been done to bring that awareness forward to consumers. A lot of these people who may have these devices – they may be of lower socioeconomic means, they may be older people who live in regional areas and might not see the need to upgrade their devices as much as some other people might – so it still remains of great concern. 

I have powers within the Telecommunications Act to be able to intervene if I determine, subject to consultation, that that needs to be done because the switchovers for Optus and Telstra are due in September. So, we want to see those numbers come down. We want more action to be taken. But if I can do the public service announcement to all your listeners: you can contact your mobile provider, check if your device is impacted, because otherwise you're going to be using it after switchover perfectly fine until the moment that you need to call Triple Zero. And we can't have people stranded in that way. 

CUMMING: No. And, as you mentioned that figure now 205,000 Australians - that's a significant number of Australians. The Opposition has criticised your handling of this, saying that the shutdown was announced back in 2019 and this Working Group that has been set up was only sort of set up this year, months before the shutdown. Did you underestimate, do you think, the impacts, the safety concerns that there would be with this shutdown? 

ROWLAND: Let's be clear here: it was the industry who indicated that “a small number” of devices would be impacted. And it's only when my Department started interrogating this to find out what the figure was – that figure has bounced around and it landed at around 740,000 – as soon as I became aware of this, I intervened. 

I think that the Opposition and every member of Parliament should be getting out in their communities, doing the public service announcements, not sniping from the sidelines, but actually making people aware of this. And I encourage, as I said, all your listeners - you can actually text the number ‘3’ to ‘3498’. That's the numeral ‘3’ to ‘3498’ and you can find out if your device is impacted. I'd encourage anyone with elderly people that they take care of, their children, anyone they know to do the same. I've done it. I've encouraged my elderly Dad to do the same. And I encourage everyone to look out for one another with this, and we've got to get that number down. 

CUMMING: So, you just have to text the number ‘3’ to ‘3498’. So, you mentioned that you can still intervene; you have powers to intervene. The shutdown initially was meant to happen, the shutdown of this 3G network was meant to happen on June 30. We understand the telcos have now pushed that back to September. As you say, if that figure is still too high, will you force the telcos to push it back even later? 

ROWLAND: I won't pre-empt any decisions, and I can't under the law. What I do have is the ability to undertake targeted consultation, but also to monitor this situation and act in the best interests of consumers. I must follow the law. But I will also note, that decision by Telstra to push their date back was a decision that they made, and that was pleasing to see because they understood the severity of this situation. But I would also just say that all the telcos need to keep working together. The industry needs to stay on top of this, but I do have that capacity to intervene. I can exercise that, subject to the law. 

CUMMING: It seems a very basic service that should be available to all Australians, no matter where they live or what phone they may choose to use. 

ROWLAND: Indeed, and the unfortunate situation here too, is that this is the way the manufacturer has actually designed these devices, so it would otherwise be working perfectly fine. As I said, we don't want Australians to find out that they can't access Triple Zero when they need it most. 

CUMMING: Federal Communications Minister Michelle Rowland is my guest in the studio this morning. You're listening to ABC Gold Coast mornings with Sarah Cumming. 

Just on another issue, a comprehensive audit is going to be conducted into all internet-facing technology used by Commonwealth agencies. In a series of formal directions quietly issued last week, the Home Affairs Secretary has instructed each Federal Government body to identify and mitigate potential risks. Under these formal instructions, the Commonwealth's entities and companies will have to share cyber-threat information with the Australian Signals Directorate. 

Now, I understand that these directives are believed to be only the second time that these binding powers have been used, with the first involving last year's ban of Chinese-owned application TikTok from Commonwealth devices. How much of a cause for concern is this? How significant is this move? 

ROWLAND: We know that foreign interference is the greatest threat that we face, and our intelligence agencies are well aware of this. Their warnings have been consistent, and it's incumbent upon governments to do everything that we can to understand what sort of threats are out there, what kind of vulnerabilities are there. I think this is a very sensible direction. It's basically an audit of Government hardware and software so we understand what applications have been downloaded onto what devices, where they are located. Because at any given point in time, our intelligence agencies will provide advice. And, of course, a lot of this is done confidentially, for obvious purposes. It is necessary to understand what Government applications are and what Government hardware is out there, what other vendors may be susceptible to. 

We know that, unfortunately, a number of vendors have been hacked. This is not a novel situation either. And we've seen similar actions taken in the United States, for example. But the point I would make is this: I think that Australians would expect governments to know where their devices are, how they're being used. And I think that this is a sensible approach. And I actually think going forward, given the threat level, given the amount of concern over foreign interference, this is may well be something that continues into the future, and rightly so. 

CUMMING: If that's what our intelligence agencies say need to be done, how will it be funded? 

ROWLAND: I expect that this will be a direction that's issued to individual departments, and so departments will need to comply with this out of their own budgets. But as to those details, I'll leave that to my most excellent colleague, the Minister for Home Affairs to answer. But that is how I expect it will be done. And I think that it's appropriate that departments take account and be accountable for their own hardware and software. On online safety more broadly, the Albanese Government is reviewing Australia's online safety laws to examine their effectiveness. 

CUMMING: Now, earlier this year, here on the Gold Coast, one of our own local high schools – Foxwell State Secondary College – was the focus of what the Education Department called a vile and disgusting social media post ranking female students. Police say a 17 year-old boy who was charged, since deleted the Instagram post and has agreed to participate in a diversion program. There was a similar issue at a Melbourne high school, as we know. Is the Government doing enough to keep our young people safe online with social media? 

ROWLAND: Firstly, it is extremely distressing those situations you mention and by-and-large, what people want in circumstances like that is that they want the images, or the information, taken down. We are fortunate in Australia that we have a world-leading agency in eSafety as a regulatory body in this area with powers under the Online Safety Act to conduct investigations, to educate and, also, to order content to be removed. If those platforms don't remove that – I should say that this is an issue that has been grappled with by regulators and governments around the world – and we've made it very clear that we want our laws to be fit-for-purpose.

Your listeners mightn't be aware that our Online Safety Act actually only came into force at the beginning of 2022. I've brought forward a review of that Act sooner than it otherwise would, because even at that time generative AI was not a commonly understood term. Neither were terms like deepfake pornography, for example.

But we are very alive to the emerging threats of technologies. We funded in our Budget a $6.5 million trial of age assurance technologies to see how that can be utilised alongside the existing powers in the Online Safety Act to keep Australians safe, particularly vulnerable Australians like children. And we know that there is a wealth of research that is now being released, after maybe a decade, or so, of studies of different harms and their linkages to social media. The Government is very alive to this. My key message is that this is a responsibility – and it's a collective one – between governments, regulators, civil society and the platforms that should be doing more. That's why I re-issued the Basic Online Safety Expectations dDgtermination, which included, amongst other things, a requirement for platforms to take into account the best interests of the child in designing their apps.

But this is an ongoing area not only of concern, but it requires a Government response that is comprehensive as well. It needs to go through education. We are funding the Alannah and Madeline Foundation for their online media literacy tools to be available free to every school, for example. And I've seen this in action. Children – they are smart – and I think that the way in which we go about this as a Government is not only about assessing whether these laws are fit-for-purpose, it's taking action where necessary, including updating the BOSE including taking action when it comes to unregulated spaces like dating apps, for example, where technology-facilitated abuse has been rife. 

CUMMING: But it just seems as though the Government's always playing catch-up, doesn't it? You know social media has been around for years and years now, and it just feels as though the Government's always playing catch-up. Do you personally support banning social media until the age of 16? 

ROWLAND: This is why we are looking at the age assurance trial at the moment. And as a Government, we have said, and the Prime Minister has made it clear, that there should be an appropriate age for usage because those harms are there. But at the same time, once you turn 17, the harms don't stop. So, this also goes to issues of what the platforms are actually doing, often feeding content. They are not passive carriers of content, they are active curators of this content as well. 

CUMMING: It's no surprise, though, to parents that we know that this is happening; we know the harms are there. It just seems like there are no protections, that the Government's not helping enough to make it easier for parents to keep their kids safe and to keep these social media companies accountable. 

ROWLAND: Well, again, I would say this: we have a Parliamentary inquiry underway at the moment that is wide-ranging, looking into a number of these matters. These harms didn't emerge overnight. But as a Government, we have been very determined and have a very clear agenda about needing to have the best evidence and the best response. You can't just make an announcement with a headline that is incapable of implementation. That is actually the wrong way to go about public policy. It needs to be evidence-based, it needs to be done in conjunction with experts, and it needs to be done with our agencies, including eSafety. 

My public service announcement here for your listeners is to go to www.eSafety.gov.au

We quadrupled base funding for the eSafety Commissioner ongoing, so that the important task of education and helping people to understand they are there to help, if people need that there is a wealth of information there. I'm a parent of young girls as well, and I understand that parents are grappling with these issues. There is one case for ensuring that the benefits of social media are there, particularly for many young people who might feel isolated for any reason, including geographic. It helps them to connect and fit in, but at the same time those harms are present, and that's where government needs to step in. 

CUMMING: Federal Communications Minister Michelle Rowland joining me in the studio this morning, a few minutes away from your 9:00 news. Minister, you are here on the Gold Coast this morning to open a new Australia Post parcel facility in Arundel. Why is that a priority? Are we just extreme internet shoppers here on the Gold Coast? 

ROWLAND: E-commerce has been booming right around Australia and Australia Post needs to respond accordingly. We know that there has been an unstoppable decline in letters. However, the transactions that we have – not only in terms of shopping but in e-commerce more generally – the movement of goods is one where Australia Post has identified a genuine need for improvements and the need to make investments.

I'm really pleased that this $12 million investment on the Gold Coast moving, at its peak, around 90,000 parcels a day. This is a great location, a huge growth-area not only of Queensland, but all of Australia. It will see Australia Post being able to maximise its opportunities, operate more efficiently, and provide customer service. We spent around 18-months consulting with Australians about the need to reform Australia Post; it recorded a $200 million loss. But we know how important Australia Post is, particularly in the regions, and for Queenslanders who understand they are the most decentralised state in Australia, the need to have that service right throughout our regions. It is absolutely essential, and the way we do this is by responding to consumer needs, including providing the best postal services and parcel services that are available. I'm very pleased to be visiting today and look forward to interacting with Australia Post. 

CUMMING: Federal Communications Minister Michelle Rowland, thanks for your time this morning. 

ROWLAND: My pleasure.