Interview with Kieran Gilbert, Sky News

KIERAN GILBERT, HOST: Let's go back to the Government's plans on the social media bans for those under 14 or 16, depending on where the Government lands. The Communications Minister, Michelle Rowland, joins me live in the studio. Thanks for your time. What age do you think it should be set at? Do you have an inclination as to which way it should be done?
 
MICHELLE ROWLAND, MINISTER FOR COMMUNICATIONS: There is intense debate in the community at the moment about what that age should be, and I note that in South Australia, the Premier there, has suggested 14; in New South Wales, 16. There is, I think, Kieran, a range and what we are seeking to do, through our age assurance trial, is examine that range, around 13 to 16, for two reasons: firstly, we know that it's within that age range that the particular harms can manifest themselves, and we have evidence of that from a wide range of health sources.
 
But also, we need to look at the efficacy. So, when an age is chosen, what is the best way to enforce that? Now, the current age that's been chosen for many social media platforms is 13, and that's primarily based on US privacy law as it pertains to children. But there is debate around this, and I think it's important to have that debate.
 
As I've engaged through this process with young people, with health experts, with advocates, there's a wide variety. What’s important here is that we continue this conversation on a national level. Obviously, people will have particular views on that, but the Government remains open to what that should be.
 
We’ll be informed by a number of pieces of work we're doing, not only the age assurance trial. We've also got the review of the Online Safety Act, which is going on at the moment. We've got the social media committee that is in the Parliament looking at these very issues. So it is live.
 
GILBERT: But you’ll land on that before the end of the year? Because the Prime Minister said he wants to legislate this.
 
ROWLAND: We will introduce legislation before the end of the year. But within the architecture we've got of the Online Safety Act -  there are a number of ways in which this can be implemented. So, we can introduce legislation there, but it also remains open for other instruments that come out of that Act to be able to move with technology and change when necessary. So we'll take advice on that. We will introduce legislation before the end of the year on that.
 
GILBERT: With the age limit in place?
 
ROWLAND: We’ll see what comes out of the age assurance trial. We want to make sure that we get this right. That’s why we are committing to introduce this legislation. We'll continue to have this conversation about age. But I think it's important to continue working with the States and Territories on this.
 
This is a national problem. It has been recognised by former Chief Justice French, in what I think was a very fair report that noted that enforceability here is one that should rest with the Commonwealth. The ideal position is that we don't have this fragmentation because social media doesn't recognise state borders or even international borders for that matter. We want to get this right. We want to continue to work together, across not only the Parliament, but indeed across all levels of Government.
 
GILBERT: Yeah, it certainly should be above politics and let's hope that there is a bipartisanship when it's done. But you could legislate the ban and then impose the age subsequently?
 
ROWLAND: That's an option. We'll take advice from that as we go through. I think the important thing here is to continue with our pieces of work. What the Prime Minister has achieved with this announcement is two things: firstly, to really give some normative value to parents out there who are worried about their kids, who are questioning what is appropriate for their own children. Secondly, it says that we understand - while all these pieces of work are being done, we need to make sure that young people are kept safe. We need to ensure that every part of the ecosystem does its job: Governments, civil society, and the platforms themselves. And that second part about the digital platforms themselves doing more is something that the Government has been focused on.
 
GILBERT: This is what Peter Malinauskas wants. He wants to say, if these tech giants don't stump up and provide the tech, which they've got. They’ve got it, they know how to do it, then they should face fines.
 
ROWLAND: We're all aligned on this. And, in terms of the fines, that's something that the Online Safety Act review is looking at currently.
 
GILBERT: So you're willing to have the fight with big tech on this, to make them step up?
 
ROWLAND: I'll start from this position first. The reason why we're doing this is to protect children -that's the first reason why we're doing it. If we need to take on big tech during it, then absolutely, the Government is committed to doing that. We need to make sure that we get the enforcement regime right. We need to make sure we get the implementation right. Kieran, there is no Government or regulator in the world who has done this to the point where we can just take it off the shelf and say, we'll implement this.
 
That's why- and it is an unusual thing for Governments to be intervening at this level - but again, the why is important. It's about the safety and the health of young Australians.
 
GILBERT: So, the Government announced it in May the trial - and now we've just got the tender out yesterday for the tech tender. Why has it taken so long?
 
ROWLAND: There's two reasons: firstly, this is involving live trials of young people for age-restricted access to pornography but also social media. There are a number of not only human rights but ethical issues in here. For anyone who wants to tell you that there's some simple solution, that is not the case. This is about trialling technologies to test for their efficacy.
 
But I'll make this point: this is only one part of the age assurance trial. The other part is substantive research that's being done in this area. And again, there's a wide range of views on that research. The other important part that I have been involved in is around consultation directly with young people, with experts, advocacy groups and so forth. That's been very important.
 
GILBERT: There'd be a lot of parents who would be really urging you to move fast and as fast as possible. Peter Malinauskas yesterday said there needs to be an urgency. Is that why the Government has moved this week, because the South Australian Premier said get on with it?
 
ROWLAND: Look, the urgency here has always been there. It's always been about making sure that we get the right regulatory settings in place, that we get action from the digital platforms.
 
GILBERT: You haven't sped this up under pressure from Malinauskas and the South Australian leadership?
 
ROWLAND: I'll make this clear: this is a collective effort, and Premier Malinauskas made that clear as well. As a Government, we have said – and the Prime Minister made this very clear – that we support restrictions on social media.
 
We funded, in our Budget, this age assurance trial - that has been going ahead. We will have results before the end of this year. I also need to be clear about what this will do; it won't provide a perfect answer, it will provide useful guidance on different technologies and the efficacy of those technologies. But there are other elements to this too – everything from media literacy to ensuring that the digital platforms are playing their part as well.
 
GILBERT: A lot of parents are, as I said, urging you to get it done and saying, why not just go to 16? Let kids be kids, as their campaign has said.
 
ROWLAND: There's a wide variety of views here. Premier Malinauskas, for example, saying 14; other groups saying 16; other people saying it's somewhere in between. So I think this is important to have this conversation. It's important that we are now committed to introducing this legislation before the end of the year.
 
GILBERT: Yeah, we hope. There is, as I said, some bipartisanship because it's in the national interest that this get done by the end of the year. Thank you, Minister, appreciate your time.
 
ROWLAND: Pleasure.