Interview with Hamish MacDonald, ABC RN Breakfast

HAMISH MACDONALD, HOST: Michelle Rowland is the Communications Minister.  Good morning to you.



MICHELLE ROWLAND, MINISTER FOR COMMUNICATIONS: Good morning.



MACDONALD: Your report shows that the digital gap between First Nations and non‑First Nations Australians has actually been widening over the past five years. Why is that?



ROWLAND: For a couple of reasons. The first is, as we measure remoteness, as we measure the amount of inclusion in metropolitan areas and also amongst non‑First Nations Australians, some aspects of those cohorts are rising. But as we can see from the latest data, and we've just had the National Digital Inclusion Index released only the last couple of days, that gap is widening unfortunately in remote and very remote areas, and that is particularly impacting on First Nations Australians. It's very significant that yesterday we released this Digital Inclusion Plan, which is a result of two years of work and sets out a framework for going towards Target 17 of Closing the Gap.



MACDONALD: Yeah, I do want to get to what the Plan includes, but why is it that that gap has widened? Why are those communities falling behind?



ROWLAND: According to some of the research that we've got, it is because in other areas some cohorts have been rising, so that gap has been getting bigger. But also, as more reliance is placed on digital technologies, exactly as you say, even the way in which we are expected to interact with government, a lot of this is done online. e‑Commerce is done online, and that is just exacerbating these problems in areas that are already digitally excluded. That's exactly what this Digital Inclusion Plan is seeking to remedy.



MACDONALD: So how is the plan going to change that, because if that's the reason for the widening gap, presumably that's only going to get worse as more and more of our services actually move to those digital spaces?



ROWLAND: This is precisely what we are looking to address, and there are three key pillars of this. There's the accessibility, affordability and ability. Those three pillars don't necessarily apply in every circumstance, but in others they can in parallel. We already have some very significant initiatives that have been undertaken by State and Territory Governments and across portfolios that are going towards this.



And to give you a practical example, I launched this yesterday in Darwin, and have been very engaged with their responsible Minister, Minister Ah Kit. For her, the key issue is around accessibility. So, it's the construction of infrastructure in various forms, be it mobile communications or Wi‑Fi, by both the public sector but also by initiatives in conjunction with the private sector.



What this is seeking to do is to set out a framework for how, not only Government, but industry and other stakeholders can come together, but it's actually setting for the first time a measurement framework.



I think the key thing here, Hamish, is to understand when we came to Government, I understood that Target 17 of Closing the Gap was to eliminate digital inequality for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Australians by 2026. I looked for the Plan and for the data to set that baseline for where we are and where we need to be.



MACDONALD: Sure.



ROWLAND: And it was absolutely lacking. I think this is really important that we have this framework in place, and that as, not only an industry, but also through the various State and Territory programs, we are actually able to make progress in closing that gap.



MACDONALD: But Minister, in practical terms, what does this actually mean? Will remote communities, for example, have better access to the internet to be able to do this stuff, or are you saying that actually you're going to work to provide those services in different ways?



ROWLAND: I can express it this way: I also established a First Nations Digital Inclusion Advisory Group, and that's been operating for the last couple of months. It's due to present its report to me shortly, and that will be largely informed also by this Digital Inclusion Plan.



Now something that as a Minister I wouldn't have considered even six months ago was how we can best set aside and incentivise private sector operators to go into these remote communities. So that's one of the reasons why we've got now over $30 million, set aside specifically for First Nations connectivity. It's also focused my mind as Minister on how I can better collaborate with not only State and Territory Governments, but also with the carriers, and I've been doing that. I think it's vitally important to recognise that we're not going to get this gap closed unless we actually have a whole‑of‑industry effort.



MACDONALD: Why not just force the industry to do it? I mean if we're saying this is fundamental to the existence of First Nations Australians, why don't we force these operators, many of which use, you know, access publicly owned assets to deliver these services anyway, why not force them to ensure that those services are available in remote communities. I mean we all know that it's basically very difficult to get online in large parts of Australia.



ROWLAND: Well, when we talk about publicly‑owned assets, the government business enterprise we're talking about here is NBN Co. Otherwise, the carriers, as you know, are private sector operators who operate fora profit, that can certainly be incentivised by government programs and government decision making. As Minister, I ‑‑



MACDONALD: But that's not quite my question though. Why incentivise it instead of just saying, "Actually, you have to do this, this is very important to remote and regional communities"?



ROWLAND: Well, again, my point is these are private sector operators. Governments do what they can in order to provide those incentives for them to do this. But as a government business enterprise, I have the ability through a Statement of Expectations in relation to NBN Co, for example, to set out what is expected of them in terms of rolling out their network and delivering on government priorities.



Now, I'm pleased to say that NBN Co has a comprehensive range of measures that it is taking, and it has initiated in areas such as community Wi‑Fi to these remote communities. They are represented on the Digital Inclusion Advisory Group and are working very cooperatively not only with the Government, but also with the rest of industry to deliver on these targets.



I think what this Plan does is it brings together those private sector operators, the expectations of government, state and territory schemes, and one thing I would highlight is that there is a lot of good work that is being done. What is needed is better coordination into how the various State and Territory programs and how their initiatives can be directed towards this goal. I note that not only is this important in terms of those three areas of access, affordability and ability, but listening yesterday to the representatives we had from the Indigenous Business Network in Darwin. They see this as being transformative, and a real opportunity to empower and sustain culture, grow entrepreneurs and some very practical examples of how that access can actually lift people out of poverty. We talk about it a lot, but these are people that actually see it in action.



MACDONALD: Minister, I do need to ask you about a few other matters. The Australian Information Commissioner has ordered a Freedom of Information Review into your refusal to provide relevant documents relating to a decision to hand‑pick locations under Round 6 of the Mobile Black Spot Program. 74 per cent of locations has been reported when Labor held seats. Why won't you make the relevant documents available?



ROWLAND: Let's be very clear, and to give context to this for your listeners, we went to the election with commitments to improve current mobile black spots at a variety of locations. We costed those commitments at $40 million; we funded them in our October Budget, and we are in the process of delivering them. We have publicly available guidelines for the assessment of those applications, which are being done at the moment by my Department. But we also, in addition, have current rounds of Mobile Black Spot and what we call Regional Connectivity Programs totalling $160 million under a $2.2 billion package that we funded in our Budget.  Now, this is an open and transparent process. The guidelines were consulted on ‑‑



MACDONALD: How can you say it's open and transparent if you won't release the relevant documents?



ROWLAND: Well, we would fully comply with any consideration of the program, as either the Information Commissioner or the Auditor‑General sees fit. But let's be very clear, this is all publicly available information for how these programs are being assessed; there is a very clear value‑for‑money imperative that is applied by the Department, but we also have a series of programs that are already openly available.



MACDONALD: Do you acknowledge that the way this has been allocated does some to disproportionately favour Labor‑held seats?



ROWLAND: Well, I won't take that, considering the Liberals, when they were in office, funded 124 out of 125 programs in Liberal and National Party seats. I just make that factual observation of the hypocrisy of this attempt by the Opposition, when in fact what they should be doing, and what I have been doing is ‑‑



MACDONALD: So, does that mean they did it so we can too? Is that your argument?



ROWLAND: I'm just making a factual observation. My observation is that this is what they did when they were in Government. We have $160 million of grants open currently under Regional Connectivity and Mobile Black Spots [Programs], and I encourage every Member of Parliament and every Senator representing regional areas, there are still a number of weeks left [for applications]. I've been engaging with stakeholders like the National Farmers’ Federation, I've been to every State and Territory in Australia promoting this, and I've been engaged with local governments who are key to this program being successful.



I would strongly suggest that the Opposition put their energies into doing exactly the same thing, because this is about getting improved coverage for regional areas who need it, particularly when it comes to safety issues in these remote areas.



MACDONALD: And on another matter, you're introducing laws to help curb misinformation and disinformation online. Who will make the decision about what is misinformation?



ROWLAND: Well, these decisions are made by the platforms themselves, and they have their own policies for how they deal with mis and disinformation, and they also have a Voluntary Code which has been devised for a number of years. We are, as a Government, actually picking up the work that was done by the previous government, announced just before the election, of saying we want the regulator to be able to look under the hood of these digital platforms to see what they're doing and hold themselves to account for their own policies in this area.



MACDONALD: But how would a determination be made against them for failing to do that without someone making a judgement somewhere about what is misinformation? Whose job would that be?



ROWLAND: Well, the judgement is already made by the platforms, and it is what they do every day. This is about the ACMA being able to examine the systems and processes and the adequacy of those systems and processes that the big platforms already say that they have in place. It's not about looking at individual pieces of content by the regulator, it is those systems and processes.



And I would note, Hamish, this has been an area of bipartisanship. This was announced by the previous government prior to the last election. We're doing exactly what the previous government said they would be doing. It would be to the great detriment of Australia if the Coalition decided to go soft on big tech in this area when we're talking about harmful mis and disinformation and how fast it can spread online.

 

MACDONALD: Michelle Rowland, thank you very much.