Interview with Andrew Clennell, Sky News Sunday Agenda

ANDREW CLENNELL, HOST: Well, returning to our top story this morning, four military personnel feared dead after a chopper crash off the North Queensland coast. Debris has now been recovered from the crash. Joining me now is the Communications Minister, Michelle Rowland. Thanks so much for your time, Minister. What's your reaction to the apparent deaths, should I say, of these military personnel?



MICHELLE ROWLAND, MINISTER FOR COMMUNICATIONS: It's the saddest thing. It is so tragic. These are Australians who put themselves in the line of fire and are undertaking these exercises to keep us all safe. And I don't have any updates, but I do know that the search and rescue efforts are continuing this morning. But it must also be a very difficult time for serving personnel and veterans. I'm sure all Australians are thinking about these personnel and their families.



CLENNELL: Right now, there must be concern about, and I know this isn't your portfolio, but there must be some concern around these types of helicopters, right? We had one ditch in Jervis Bay in March and now this is involved in the accident. Do we have any idea about whether there are mechanical issues or it's a human error here?



ROWLAND: I'm reluctant to give commentary on that for obvious reasons, that there will be a full investigation obviously into this, and I'll leave that to the Defence Minister. I do think at this time the main thing to focus on is these personnel, their families. But undoubtedly, they are things that will be explored and I'll let Minister Marles continue with that.



CLENNELL: Right, all right. Well, let's talk about your portfolio. Now, you've got this bill, which seems like it's a bit contentious on misinformation in terms of online services. So, your proposal, it says it's to enable ACMA - the Australian Communications Media Authority - to gather information from digital platform providers to keep certain records. ACMA can ask for a Code of Practice around misinformation and disinformation, but it would not have the power to request specific content or posts be removed. So, how would it work? And are we talking about Facebook and Google and Twitter, or is there a risk of censorship of media companies as well?



ROWLAND: Currently we're consulting on this exposure draft and this is open for public consultation. I should be clear here, exactly as you said, this isn't about the regulator having any power to remove content or order the removal of content. This is about the digital platforms doing what they say they will do in respect of mis and disinformation. Just to be clear, mis and disinformation is information that is verifiably false and causes harm. To give you some examples about the scale and the speed of spread; for example, a piece of misinformation that people should ingest bleach to treat a viral condition is harmful. Misinformation that says that telecommunications towers are harmful to human health and causes people to destroy telco infrastructure. That is harmful. You also have, of course, mis and disinformation that comes from bad actors or rogue states acting against Australia's interests, seeking to undermine Australia's democracy and national security.



CLENNELL: So, Russia and China probably we're talking about there?



ROWLAND: Well, you're very clear that in. My predecessor, Minister Fletcher, who announced prior to the election he was going to do exactly the same thing, specifically mentioned Russia, Ukraine in his media release. Now, this is – again - about keeping Australians safe. This is about holding the digital platforms to account for what they already say they will do. They have a voluntary Code of Practice in place at the moment, and that has been found to need extra teeth in terms of enforcement. So, this is about the regulator holding the platforms to account for what they say they will do about harmful misinformation.



CLENNELL: All right, well, you've got the Opposition MP talking sort of about the ‘thought police’ in connection with this. Could anything that we report, for example, be subject to this? Or is it really is more about those digital platforms and rogue elements? 



ROWLAND: It's about the digital platform systems and processes. I would also point out that professional news content is specifically excluded, as is authorised election content. I would suggest to those Coalition MPs that they go and look on their own Liberal Party website today, where there's a beaming face of Peter Dutton and Sussan Ley, and on that website actually has this precise policy which we picked up from the Coalition prior to the election.



CLENNELL: So, it was prompted by the Coalition's proposal?



ROWLAND: This has been around since 2019. Rod Sims at the ACCC, in his Digital Platforms Inquiry, highlighted the damage of mis and disinformation and the need to address it. The ACMA prior to our election also highlighted the same and has reports since on the need to have a more effective code. As I just said, Minister Fletcher, prior to the election, issued a media release that could have just as easily had gone out with my name on it. We picked this up at the beginning of the year, announced that we would do it, and a few weeks ago announced a public consultation on the exposure draft. This is precisely the policy that the Coalition took to the last election, which we have picked up.



CLENNELL: All right, what further can the government do to crack down on social media companies? It feels like ads pop up when you just talk about stuff or communicate about stuff. What more regulation can we put around social media companies potentially? Are you worried about privacy?



ROWLAND: Australians are worried about privacy and nearly 70% of them are worried about mis and disinformation. But it also comes down to two other elements. The first is ad tech and the opaque nature of the arrangements that the digital platforms have in place, for which they charge companies and media, for example, for use of their intellectual property. That's one issue. The other issue is where there are specific competition elements and the ACCC has been very forthright in bringing cases, some of these in the last four years, pointing out some of the areas where there has been a misuse of market power. So, approaching it from both those angles, you can see, and this is again, largely the approach that's been taken in the EU, both of those come together to have some effectiveness. But I think too, Andrew, the scale and scope of these digital platforms is one that is really still only beginning to be understood. That ad tech side that you just speak of is one, again, that Rod Sims had been exploring since that 2019 review. There are no easy answers here, but governments need to do what they can on all these aspects, including addressing mis and disinformation.



CLENNELL: Can you easily say how they're getting hold of personal details about us in order to advertise to us?



ROWLAND: The easiest way to say is every time that you put in enter some of your personal data that is kept somewhere. You're asked to accept cookies, for example. Those details are kept somewhere. But in answer to your question, is there an easy answer? No. And that is one of the real challenges facing regulators right around the world at the moment, because it does intersect in these areas of privacy. The Attorney-General has had an inquiry on foot and is bringing that to a conclusion after many years. And again, this is a very important topic, and one of the most important topics that your viewers might be interested in as well is the information about children. That's been a specific concern for some time because, again, that goes to potentially exposing children to content that then is not age appropriate - other aspects that might cause harm. But again, all these aspects, there is no easy answer, and regulators and governments around the world are dealing with it as best they can.



CLENNELL: I reported at the top of the show that Cabinet likely were expected to consider some form of inquiry into home affairs contracts while Peter Dutton was Minister related to Nauru and offshore processing. We've had bribery allegations and charges around companies involved in that. How big an inquiry is this likely to be?



ROWLAND: Well, it's very serious and I think any inquiry will be commensurate with that level of seriousness.



CLENNELL: We're not talking Royal Commission though, are we?



ROWLAND: No one has mentioned Royal Commission to me, nor have I seen it in media. I know that my most excellent colleague, Clare O'Neil, has said that this is a matter that needs to be opened up and thoroughly examined. I would be very hesitant to make any other judgments or comments around that because it is a very live and serious investigation.



CLENNELL:  Now, you've really taken the stick to sports betting in your time in the job. You got big reforms. You're not going to let punters use their credit cards to deposit anymore to bet. Do you expect that to make a big difference in terms of gambling in this country?



ROWLAND: Absolutely. This again is the result of a long running inquiry that had been sitting there for many years and not picked up. What we are doing here is putting credit cards for online wagering on the same level as land-based wagering. That again, seeks to minimise harm. Harm minimisation is really the underlying principle of everything that we are doing in this space. It has also been shown that for those people who are particularly vulnerable, the banning of credit cards will have a measurable impact on that harm.



CLENNELL:  What might you do on television ads? Because Peter Dutton's got his proposal - not during a sporting match. Seems clear from comments you've made you're looking to do something. What might it be?



ROWLAND: I've made it clear that the status quo is untenable, but we are looking very closely at all the findings of the review that the House of Representatives has done in this area. There's a large number of recommendations there. Some of them overlap with Social Services, some of them, the intent of them has actually already been implemented. For example, a couple of weeks ago, I announced a start date for BetStop, which is a way in which, with a single touch, a person can self exclude from all forms of online wagering. In Australia, we've also implemented the last parts of the National Consumer Protection Framework, including updating those taglines. But we're examining right now and undertaking, just as we said we would, consultation on the impacts of those particular recommendations. We're going about that methodically with key stakeholders, including harm reduction advocates, the broadcasters and other stakeholders. So, that will go through our normal Cabinet processes. But again, we're very mindful that the status quo is untenable and change does need to be made in this area.



CLENNELL:  This Mobile Black Spot Program you announced before the election, I think something like 70% of grants were to Labor electorates. Is this a good old fashioned pork barrel?



ROWLAND: What we had here were election commitments which were prior to the election by us in Opposition. We decided that this was a serious issue. We consulted widely with our MPs and candidates and we took that to the election. We also funded that - because we were elected - in the October Budget for $40 million. Quite separate to that, of course, is a current open round under our $2.2 billion regional connectivity [package] for $160 million in regional connectivity and black spots that are open right now. We obviously want to meet all of our election commitments. We funded that as such, and we look forward to delivering in all those areas.



CLENNELL:  Do you have anything to fear here, though, in terms of the Auditor-General looking at this? I mean, obviously Bridget McKenzie didn't end up so well out of that sort of process. Are you concerned about the Auditor-General looking at this?



ROWLAND: The Auditor-General is welcome to do their job, just as I will do mine. But let's be very clear. Bridget McKenzie and the sports rorts affair was when they were in Government and had all access to departmental advice. This was a policy that we took to the election. It was included in our pre-election costings. We have been absolutely upfront about funding this. We've issued draft guidelines and final guidelines which are now with the Department because people have applied for those sites to be able to deliver them - the carriers and other stakeholders. The Department is assessing all those now for value, for money, and the Department will do its job.



CLENNELL:  All right. You're a Western Sydney based MP. What do you think of any plans by the Minns Government to cancel or scale back the Western metro?



ROWLAND: Obviously I support any infrastructure in Western Sydney, particularly public transport. I certainly don't envy the position that he's in with such large cost blowouts and having to be properly appraised of all that. But I think all Western Sydney MPs and residents are very frustrated by the fact that we've had for so many years, infrastructure not keeping pace with developments. The Premier made that point precisely. But obviously, we want to see greater infrastructure investment in Western Sydney. I represent an area where some suburbs will grow by over 300% by 2040.



CLENNELL:  Would you urge him to go ahead with it?



ROWLAND: I would urge any government to go ahead with any public transport projects. But again, he's made it very clear he's using taxpayers money here. He needs to make sure that this stacks up. He also outlined, and I think that was the first time I'd heard it, about the private sector being involved in a different way. So, I think very clearly he is mindful of the needs for Western Sydney to have proper transport where that population is growing. I think that is well understood, as is, I think, all Western Sydney MPs at a state and federal level.



CLENNELL:  How concerned are you about the gun violence that's going on right now?



ROWLAND: It is deeply concerning, and it seems like it is one that has been perpetuated for many years now. But again, I have absolute confidence in the NSW Police to do its job. It's obviously extremely concerning when you have particularly young people in public situations who may be exposed to this violence as well. And again, I think the Premier highlighted his acute awareness of this.



CLENNELL:  And just finally, how do you feel about a potential another interest rate rise this week?



ROWLAND: Especially with inflation moderating, but not moderating as fast as we would like, and representing an area where there are high levels of mortgage stress, it's one that weighs very heavily. Cost of living is a great concern, but the Reserve Bank will do its job independently as it always does. In the meantime, this Government will continue to provide targeted cost of living relief as best we can without unnecessarily adding to inflation.



CLENNELL:  Communications Minister Michelle Rowland. Thanks so much for your time this morning.



ROWLAND: Pleasure