Interview with ABC Radio National

ANDY PARK, HOST: Last week the Government was met with a mixed reception over its proposal to introduce a social media ban for young Australians. Today, Meta announced it’s introducing teen accounts with content restrictions and measures to reduce how much time teens spend on their platform – sort of sounds like counter to their business plan, doesn’t it? So are the big tech companies finally listening to the Australian Government’s threats, or is this simply another way to keep children hooked on their screens? Michelle Rowland is the Minister for Communications. I spoke to her earlier this afternoon.
 
PARK: Why do you think Meta’s made this move to introduce teen accounts?
 
MICHELLE ROWLAND, MINISTER FOR COMMUNICATIONS: Firstly, I want to acknowledge that any changes to boost privacy and parental controls for children is a welcome thing by any platform. In this case, Meta introducing this for Instagram is a sound move, because anything that makes social media platforms safer and healthier is really a welcome step. The Government’s been clear all along that online safety is a collective effort. It involves government, industry and civil society. Industry does need to do more, and today’s announcement shows that it can do more.
 
PARK: Will it effectively water down your Government’s plans to bring in that ban before the end of the year?
 
ROWLAND: Firstly, we note that this announcement today applies to Instagram and, of course, there’s a wide variety of social media platforms. Secondly, the Government is very clear that, in this area, it’s one where industry has not done enough. So, whilst this is a welcome move, it certainly does not solve for the wide range of problems when it comes to access to screen addiction and some of those harmful impacts. I should make it clear that, from the Government’s perspective, what is being done here and what the Government is doing through its own initiatives, (is that) we need to make the online environment safer.
 
I think that every Australian appreciates that the ability to make every place 100 per cent safe, 100 per cent of the time, is something that’s good for society, but we need to be realistic. I think Australians, and particularly mums and dads out there, are looking for it to be made better and that’s what we’re seeking to do by this legislation.
 
PARK: There was criticism, though, by experts in online safety, many of whom said that the Government was ignoring their advice following the announcement last week. I spoke to Daniel Angus from the Queensland University of Technology.
 
[EXCERPT]
 
DANIEL ANGUS, QUEENSLAND UNIVERSITY OF TECHNOLOGY: Many of the submissions made in the current and very live inquiry into social media and Australian society – there’s many, many good solutions there that the Government could draw on. But there’s a frustration today that we see the Government rushing ahead, with support from the Opposition I would say, to just implement a ban.
 
PARK: What do you think about that? Are you rushing ahead despite the advice?
 
ROWLAND: Well, those views should be respected – and there’s a wide variety of views on this. Even through our age assurance trial, I have engaged directly with parent groups, with experts, with young people themselves. There is a wide variety of views and we acknowledge that.
 
PARK: But effectively, Minister, the accusation is you’re ignoring the advice given by experts to the joint select inquiry.
 
ROWLAND: I will make the point that there are other experts who say the opposite as well. I would also make this point – we know that social media can be beneficial for many people, and that includes young people who may be neurodivergent, who may be finding their place, who otherwise may be isolated.
 
So, there are lots of positive impacts from social media and the Government doesn’t deny that. But our role, as a government, is to do what we can to keep Australians safe. We know about these harms and we know that action needs to be taken here. We’ll continue to consult as part of not only the age assurance trial, but also as we formulate this legislation.
 
PARK: We’ve also seen ACMA today release its third report on the voluntary code that combats mis and disinformation online. What does that say about the efficacy of the current code, that there’s been three reports on this voluntary code?
 
ROWLAND: What it shows is that some 75 per cent of Australians are concerned about misinformation. That’s an increase and it’s compounded, exactly as the ACMA said, by tragic events in Sydney in recent months. It also underscores the need for legislation in this area.
 
We, as a government, applaud the fact that industry has taken efforts through this code. But I would point out that it is voluntary, it doesn’t have the ability for enforcement; there’s a lack of consistency, and there is a lack of Australian-specific data here.
 
PARK: What about transparency then? Because that seems to be patchy, there’s been no discernible progress towards identifying key performance indicators by both individual signatories or across the code. If the current voluntary code isn’t working because of a lack of enforcement mechanisms, how will enforcement work under this new code?
 
ROWLAND: That goes to this very issue of why a voluntary code is insufficient. The code’s voluntary. The ACMA currently has no power to oversee the platform efforts or to compel information or enforce against breaches of the code. So, what the Government has done in introducing this legislation is we want to empower the regulator to do exactly those things – to hold the platforms to account, to make them lift their game. In terms of enforcement, the ACMA has a well-understood graduated framework of tools that it can use. There are civil penalties that could apply for a breach or a code or a standard, and they would be significant penalties.
 
PARK: What if the tech companies ignore those orders? How will ACMA actually collect those fines?
 
ROWLAND: Well again, the ACMA does this as a matter of course. We, as a country, seek to enforce our own rules – any businesses operating in Australia must do that. Again, this is about the ACMA taking a graduated approach of any such action. It can issue formal warnings, remedial directions, issue infringement notices that the platform should be in no doubt and Australians should be in no doubt that our regulator is well versed in this area.

By giving them these necessary powers, we can ensure that seriously harmful mis and disinformation is addressed by the platforms, that they have the proper systems and processes in place to keep Australians safe.
 
PARK: I want to come to the News Media Bargaining Code. Meta, and perhaps you can correct or confirm the record here, because Meta’s Australian Director of Policy, Mia Garlick, recently revealed that the Government has not had any further communication with Meta regarding the News Media Bargaining Code since she appeared before the committee. Is that correct, Minister?
 
ROWLAND: Well, the Department and individual ministers continue to engage right across the sector, and this is an important area that goes to not only the survival of news media in Australia, but also the role of the digital platforms. 
 
PARK: So when will those negotiations recommence, then?
 
ROWLAND: Well, Meta’s decision earlier in the year to stop paying for news is one that we’ve made very clear is a dereliction of duty. The Government is following the code process very closely. We know how litigious these digital platforms can be. They have deep pockets. So, we need to ensure that we take that advice from the ACCC that we consider it closely as a government.
 
PARK: But you’re not concerned about wielding the stick here, because local newsrooms have consistently warned that their services will shut without this funding. Australian Community Media recently announced 35 editorial staff had been laid off, and once those jobs are gone, they’re unlikely to come back. So I suppose my question is, why aren’t you making these negotiations a priority? 
 
ROWLAND: These are a priority. This is an area in which the Government needs to ensure that we get the response right, because we know not only is Meta involved in the News Media Bargaining Code, but another very significant platform, Google, is as well. They provide the majority of funding under the News Media Bargaining Code.
 
Let’s be very clear, the issues that have been happening in regional media and in media overall in Australia is one that did not emerge overnight. There has been a structural decline as a result of the digital platforms disruption of the business model of news media. We’re seeking to address that in a number of ways, pursuing it not only through our News Media Assistance Program, but also making sure that we get the policy response right when it comes to the News Media Bargaining Code. We’ll have more to say on that soon as a government.
 
This is an area in which we are crystal clear about the policy intent and the outcome that we need to have, and that is that we need to ensure that news media publishers in Australia are properly recompensed by the digital platform for the use of their content. That has not changed.
 
PARK: I just want to come to gambling advertising reform. I actually want to play you a little bit of audio from an interview that ran on Radio National Breakfast yesterday. This is a woman who we’re calling Kate, whose brother committed suicide because she could no– or he could no longer fight his gambling addiction. Take a listen.
 
[EXCERPT]
 
CALLER KATE: I know it’s a hard problem, and I understand that the Government’s in a tricky position, but it’s clear what the right thing is to do. It’s just a matter of bravery, really. So, yeah, I don’t feel heard by the politicians who have the power to make change. I have been really disappointed to hear things like gambling doesn’t harm people like tobacco being said on Q&A only three weeks ago. 
 
PARK: What’s your response, Minister? Why does the Government appear to be giving into the gambling lobby on this decision?
 
ROWLAND: Well, firstly, I reject your statement then. I will say in terms of Kate, she is someone who is very brave and I think highlights the very reason why the Government instigated this inquiry in the first place – undertaken by our dear late colleague Peta Murphy.
 
Her bravery in coming forward underscores the need for reform in this area. I should be very clear that the Government is committed to three areas and three outcomes here: to protect children; to ensure that we break that nexus between gambling and sport; and that we deal with the saturation of ads as well, particularly as they are targeted to a male cohort aged around 18 to 35.
 
My understanding is that Kate’s loved-one certainly would have come under one of those vulnerable cohorts. It’s one of the reasons why, as a government, (we) have introduced probably one of the most effective prevention mechanisms in terms of BetStop which is a– the ability to self-exclude. That’s seen some 28,000 Australians in a year self-exclude, many of them for life. But Kate is absolutely right that more needs to be done.
 
PARK: So, when, though, Minister? I mean when will we see action from this inquiry? What is the timeline for announcing legislation to curb the impacts of gambling advertising? That’s kind of the nub of the question. 
 
ROWLAND: We have been consulting on a model with affected stakeholders. We want to ensure we get this right, because the last time that this was dealt with, it actually resulted in an increase in broadcasting advertising under the previous Government. We’d need to guard against those unintended consequences.
 
I think Kate’s interview also makes a very good point – we’re talking here about advertising. But in fact, the Murphy inquiry had a vast array of other items to be addressed, many of them concerned with State and Territory laws and ensuring that there was cooperation between the States and Territories. We will have more to say on that in due course. I do want to make it very clear that advertising was one component of that. It is an important one, because it’s one that viewers and listeners are exposed to. There is no denying that. 
 
PARK: One that’s so important, Minister, is that 70 per cent of Australians support a total ban on advertising. I mean, are you concerned this could harm your election chances next year? 
 
ROWLAND: Well, the Government is determined, as I said, in those three areas, to get its policy response right here. To ensure that it is effective and that it is comprehensive. We have taken more action as a government in the last two years than in the last decade. Introducing a ban on the use of credit cards for online wagering, making sure that we’ve got those mandatory verification before betting, the introduction of BetStop, as I said. But there’s more to do and the Government acknowledges that. There’s more to do, comprehensively, to get this right.
 
PARK: We’ll have to leave it there, Minister. I do appreciate your time. Federal Minister for Communications Michelle Rowland. Thank you.
 
ROWLAND: Pleasure.