Interview with Laura Jayes, Sky News AM Agenda

LAURA JAYES, HOST: Joining me live is the Communications Minister, Michelle Rowland. She's here in the studio with me. Great to see you, Michelle. First of all, this idea about these labels, I call them “cigarette-style” warnings, and it's something that Australia led the world on. Is it something we could and should do when it comes to social media?

MICHELLE ROWLAND, MINISTER FOR COMMUNICATIONS: I think Australia should continue to be world leading when it comes to being evidence-based and understanding that whilst social media has been a force for useful connections for many people, including young people, we're into our second generation of digital natives now. The vectors for harm have never been more exemplified, have never been better understood, and continue to be better understood as each day goes by.

But I think what is really interesting about the Surgeon General's warning here is probably threefold: firstly, in the United States, some of the comments the Surgeon General made were that these platforms are operating “under no rules” whatsoever. We're well placed in Australia - we do have a legislative framework. We also have a regulator in the eSafety Commissioner.

Secondly: there are various States, as you will know, in the United States that have decided to mandate certain age-gating of social media. And some of those vary, but we are observing, at the moment, how they can be capable of implementation, how they can actually be done. In Australia, we are pursuing an age assurance trial that we funded in the Budget to test those technologies.

Thirdly: in Australia, we have always had this view that the Internet is not an ungoverned space. There's always been some laws that have attached to it. But we have decided as a Government that we will review and update our laws. We currently have a review of the Online Safety Act. I recently announced an update of the Basic Online Safety Expectations. The Attorney-General has brought forward legislation to ban deepfake pornography. Some of your viewers may have seen some of the latest advertisements about positive messaging for young men around recommended systems, for example.

We're approaching it very much as a whole of government as well. I think it also points to smoking was once promoted as something that was healthy and once upon a time. The challenges in retrofitting those harms is one that took decades, in terms of smoking, but it's one that we are very alive to as a Government, society is alive to. And as I've always maintained, it's important for regulators, industry and civil society to work together as part of a shared responsibility to make this a safer space.
 
JAYES: What do you think about those labels? Could they be done? Will you actively ask the Department to look at this included as part of the trial?
 
ROWLAND: I think this is part of an exploration in a couple of streams. Firstly, the Online Safety Act review at the moment is looking at the variety of harms themselves. That is something that's being explored there. We've also got a joint Parliamentary Inquiry that is looking into social media platforms more generally and some specific issues so that'll be open to them there.

I'm very keenly watching this. We've got, as I said, the age assurance trial funded in the Budget, the implementation of that. I'll be able to announce some milestones in the near future, but it's certainly one that I'm keen at looking at because it is about those warnings. But you can do warnings in different ways, Laura, and one of those ways is through media literacy. And that's something that's really been underdone to date. We funded in a previous Budget – the Alannah and Madeleine Foundation – to roll out their tools so they're available free in every school who wants them. And I've been to these schools, Laura: young people, they are ready to heed the warnings, they are ready to learn, and they are very smart.
  
JAYES: Okay, so you've got this big review at the moment. I think we can all agree here that there's a real push. Now, News Corp has led this. We've seen bipartisan support for age limits, for social media use, and there could be a little bit of a, you know, a grey area. And I say that, you know, 14 to 16 might be with parental consent or whatever it is. But the Prime Minister was asked about the age limit of 16 the other day, and he seemed to agree that that was the right level. Have you landed on an age yet? And if not, why not?
 
ROWLAND: That's one of the ages that we're looking at for exactly the reasons, as you say, it's around having the implementation in place, making sure we know that a lot of these technologies can unfortunately be circumvented. But that's a key reason why we are doing the age assurance trial –

JAYES: Sorry to interrupt you, but I just want to get an idea of what your thinking is here, because, you know, you just said that getting smoking rates down with all those warnings took decades. This is evolving so quickly that I don't think parents and children have decades to wait to bring this back. So, are you looking for the perfect solution to make sure it will work, or can you just make sure this is done quickly and evolve that as issues arise or as social media companies get around it?
 
ROWLAND: No, it's a really good frame that you present. There is no perfect solution. I think we should be very clear. There's no perfect solution, but it does need to be integrated with a number of other factors, including having the technology, understanding the technology, and that's always getting involved.

And that's why, through this age assurance trial, there's three key things that we're looking at: firstly is the use cases around access to age-restricted content such as pornography, other age platforms such as video games – for example – that might only be appropriate for certain age groups, and also social media.
 
JAYES: Those thinking more 16 than 14?

ROWLAND: What we want to do is examine, firstly, the evidence. So, what does the evidence show? We know that there's some States and some jurisdictions around the age of 13, for example, that are the minimum uses for current platforms, but they're not enforced. That is the key issue.

JAYES: That's right. And also think about how quickly this is evolving as well. I mean, what research are you looking at to say, oh, well, 13 or 14 is the right age? Maybe you need to, you know, overstep that and then correct it later?

ROWLAND: Well, indeed, and the thing is there's so much research that's coming out right now. That has looked into, you know, over a decade of social media use. And we can see all those different evidences of harms that are emerging: be it mental health and other issues, including the fact that these platforms are actually curators of content, and they are pushing certain content through their algorithms. So, in answer to your questions, we are looking at a range of ages. 16 is one, certainly, just as the Prime Minister said, it's one that we're looking at.

JAYES: Is that where you'll probably land?

ROWLAND: I don't want to pre-empt any of this, but certainly we know that young people's brains are evolving, and the evidence is coming in on this, too. Their brains are evolving between that critical 13 to 16 age.

But the thing is, Laura, when you turn 16: the harms don't end. We need to also examine this in terms of what the platforms are actually doing, in terms of pushing content and ensure that we keep pace with those harms. Through this age assurance trial, we'll be able to get a good evidence base for that, and to be able to make decisions based on that.

But again, I will just stress the industry already knows their users better than anyone else. They know if you and I are online, they know what ads to push to you and me, for example. And they know if someone is a child, depending on what kind of content they're viewing and their search history. So, the platforms need to do more as well.

And this will be part of the trial, examining what current technologies are in place now. But I think every parent is concerned about this. Whether their kids are 13, 7 or 16. Every parent and caregiver is concerned about this. And we, as a Government want to do everything in our power to not only be holistic in our approach – do this across Government – ensure that it is a joined-up mechanism that we have, but also that it's effective. It needs to be capable of implementation and effective.

JAYES: You've got this perfect storm, a good one of bipartisanship here and a big push from traditional media. Are you willing to go hard on these social media companies? Peter Dutton's already talked about pushing them where it hurts them the most. And that's when it comes to money.

ROWLAND: Well, where it hurts them the most also, and you'll get this from whistleblowers, is transparency and accountability. That's what they cannot tolerate –

JAYES: I mean, but we saw Elon Musk treated the eSafety Commissioner.

ROWLAND:  Indeed, and I think there's no repercussions there for him. The important thing here is that we continue. We have a regulatory framework in place. We have an independent regulator. We will continue to assert Australia's sovereignty in this area. We will continue to not only expect, but assert compliance with our laws. And we will continue to make sure that our laws are up-to -ate and that these digital platforms are held to account in a variety of areas. Everything ranging from market power misuse to the impacts on children.

JAYES: Okay, just one final question. Are you alive to the anxiety in this area that perhaps the Government's being a little bit too slow on this? We understand the complexity, but are you trying to do this as fast as you possibly can?

ROWLAND: This is one of the highest priorities of this Government. Keeping Australians safe –that includes children. There can be no greater priority for a Government. I announced in November last year that we would bring forward this Review of the Online Safety Act, not for its own sake, but to make sure that our laws were keeping up to date. We have backed the eSafety regulator. In fact, we quadrupled ongoing base funding for eSafety because we understood that that task was so great. There is no one more alive to this than the Prime Minister. He understands because he listens to people as he travels around. He listens to parents telling them their concerns around this. This is one of our highest priorities. We are going about this in a methodical way, but also one, as I said, that is joined up across Government. It's not making policy on the run, but it is making sure that we are expeditious, that we do this thoroughly and that we get results, and that's what matters.

JAYES: Michelle, great to have you here.
 
ROWLAND: Pleasure. See you soon.