Interview with Jamie Burnett, 6PR Perth

JAMIE BURNETT, HOST: I'm pretty keen to dig straight into this, because it's good timing to have the Federal Communications Minister, Michelle Rowland, in the studio. Plenty to dig into; a broad portfolio, and the recent Parliamentary Committee findings into online gambling are important. 31 recommendations were made, as you'd know, on how the industry should be regulated. The big one was a call for a phased ban over the next three years of all advertising, directing punters to websites and apps and places to bet; one of the things I'm keen to have a chat about. Michelle Rowland, great to see you. Thanks for being in the studio.

MICHELLE ROWLAND, MINISTER FOR COMMUNICATIONS: Thanks for having me.

BURNETT: How's Perth today?

ROWLAND: Perth was good. It's going to be a good rest of the week as well. So in town for a couple of days, and doing a number of things across the portfolio, which, as you said, is very broad; everything from eSafety to the NBN, and really pleased to be able to connect with your listeners this afternoon.

BURNETT: Is that one of the difficulties of a portfolio like this; where do I draw my attention, where do I start, where do I finish, where do I go next?

ROWLAND: It's one of the beauties, because there's always something happening in each of the areas, and I also have the great Government business enterprise of Australia Post, which was, of course, the original bedrock of the portfolio. This used to be called the Postmaster General, and ‑‑

BURNETT: How times change.

ROWLAND: ‑‑ how times change, and now we have so much online, exactly as we're about to talk about now.

BURNETT: Now, you are in Perth due to a roll‑out of NBN full fibre upgrades across Perth. How significant is this work, and where is it all taking place?

ROWLAND: It's game‑changing, and Western Australia was unfortunately left as one of the copper rich States, not in a good way, but in a technological way. So, we are really keen as a Government to ensure that everyone has the best opportunities for the highest quality broadband. We're upgrading right across Australia, some 1.5 million premises, from copper to fibre, and that includes over 80,000 premises in the Metro Perth area, and around 130,000 right across the state. And that's purely in terms of the copper footprint.

This will mean that customers who are in these areas and small businesses will have better reliability, higher speeds and a better‑quality service overall. And we know how important that is, especially for a state that is really growing, and ensuring that their small businesses, consumers and workers have that equality of opportunity through the highest‑quality broadband.

BURNETT: So you're here for a couple of days. Did you meet a few people today who will welcome that upgrade, but they've probably had that frustration of very slow speeds that not only impedes what they do day‑to‑day, but potentially their small business as well?

ROWLAND: Absolutely, and people have noticed the difference, and it means that their quality of life is improved, it means that they're able to do things without that frustration, and that's really what I was hearing from our now Members of Parliament, and many of them have come from Western Australia since the last election, but they considerably have noticed a difference, that people are saying they are glad that it's coming, and when it does come they notice it.

So, it is pleasing to see those results, and I got the opportunity to go to a number of small businesses around Perth, and just listening to how they've been able to utilise better broadband, how they've been able to change their work patterns. It really does put in perspective those numbers, that $2.4 billion investment, 1.5 million premises, but it means something to people.

BURNETT: Look, a question for outside of your portfolio, but you're here today and you're meeting with people, and probably a different experience for what it is over in Sydney, and we had yesterday with the RBA deciding to leave rates on hold. Did you get a sense of the economy here in Western Australia, and how locals here in Perth are doing, maybe compared to what you see on a more regular basis, through Sydney or Canberra?

ROWLAND: Look, as an outsider, I guess there's probably two things: I was last in Perth in December, but I have noticed, having been here for a couple of days, it is a very busy place, there's a lot happening, and as we were sort of coming out of the pandemic in the Eastern States, I have noticed that really picking up. You go to restaurants, even walking down the street you notice there's a lot more activity, so I have noticed that activity.

Also, I guess the second point is, people are getting on with their lives, but they are doing it tough, and it just reinforced to me that no matter where you live in Australia, we're all being impacted by a lot of factors that are beyond our control.

But I want to assure all your listeners, like this is not lost on Prime Minister Albanese's Ministers. In each of our portfolios we are acutely aware that people are under pressure, everyone is seeking to do what we can, and we have one directive from the Prime Minister, and that's to "do your job". So we're all focussed on that.

I look forward to being able to make some announcements in the near future that go specifically to those issues about cost‑of‑living, but everyone is acutely aware of these issues, and I guess again, just bringing it home in terms of the NBN, this has been a cause of major frustration for people. In the end, connectivity, good connectivity makes you more productive, saves time, saves money, and that's what it's all about. It's about making sure there's that equality of opportunity, irrespective of where you live or work in Australia.

BURNETT: Okay. As we mentioned off the top, a broad portfolio, so I want to get into a few things. I talked about the Online Gambling Inquiry. Has the volume of gambling ads in your opinion reached a tipping point in terms of exposure?

ROWLAND: Look, I think it's very clear that the community has strong views on this issue. As a parent, of course, I notice this myself. Anyone who comes up to me in the community who is concerned about it, raises it, and thinks that we need to do something about this, and this has been coming for a long time.

So I'm grateful to the committee for undertaking this important piece of work, again at the direction of my colleague the Minister for Social Services.  This has been comprehensive, and I think that the recommendations that they have given to us really need to be examined closely. As I have made clear, even prior to the report coming out, the status quo isn't good enough, and I think that's something that's broadly accepted.

The Inquiry also heard from a broad range of people who have been impacted by excessive gambling or exposure to gambling ads, there are a number of stakeholders who have been involved in this process, so the task now for Government is to consider all of these recommendations as a really strong and comprehensive evidence base, but certainly, we are prioritising that issue of gambling ads, which not only go across the broadcast medium, including radio, but also online as well.

BURNETT: Yeah. And the blurring of content in advertising as well, which I know isn't limited to that space, but do you see that as something that needs more regulation, because you turn on the footy and you see an ad from a gambling company, and they're talking about possessions and margins, and it really does feel, often when it's presented by a former player, that there's a blurring there between, when is it content, when is it an ad?

ROWLAND: That is certainly some of the evidence that was borne out by the committee, and we also know, this is in the public domain, that a number of the sporting codes also have arrangements in place with some of these companies. So that blurring is something that was borne out in the report; it's something that also needs to be taken into consideration.

But ultimately what we are talking about here is where that exposure does become harmful, and the report drew on a lot of evidence that went to this very point, and that is why we are considering this most comprehensively, including where it impacts on the most vulnerable. I do see this as being a task of Government that's complementary to a number of measures that we're already taking, including banning the use of credit cards for online gambling, so bringing that in line with land‑based wagering as well. Also looking at the regulation of and the classification of video games that have simulated gambling in them as well, so updating those classification rules so that they're fit for purpose, and we're also going to implement the final recommendations of the National Consumer Protection Framework with a National Self‑Exclusion Register. We'll be doing that in the near future.

That again complements updating those tag lines which used to be about gambling responsibly but giving them a refresh so that they're more meaningful, and all of this, of course, complements the overall role of Government, which is to keep Australians safe, and particularly vulnerable Australians.

BURNETT: You're listening to Michelle Rowland, the Communications Minister. I'm glad you brought up the digital space and families as well, and this is only anecdotal, but I reckon it's an experience that's probably been shared by plenty of people listening. But I was at a family lunch a couple of months back, the talk gets to footy with my uncles and my cousins, and my 15‑year‑old cousin starts talking to me in terms of stats and odds, and overs and unders to describe the game that was about to start. How real is that problem of exposure to gambling for our youth, particularly in that digital space for this area at the moment?

ROWLAND: Again, the evidence that was presented to the Inquiry went to that very point, and younger people, by and large if you were to generalise, they're not consuming the traditional digital broadcast media in many cases; they are consuming it online, and that's where this online wagering is also conducted.

So it really goes to the format that they are participating in. So yes, it is definitely an issue, and we know that from the evidence that's been presented, and that's why we need to take a very comprehensive approach to this issue. It doesn't require, and certainly needs something more than piecemeal simply looking at the broadcast medium, for example, but across all areas of sponsorship and advertising, wherever it occurs, because that digital environment is one in which we know that young men in particular, this is where they are targeted as well, and that's where that advertising is most effective in many cases.

BURNETT: How impartial can a Government be on an issue like this, because with gambling, you copped some criticism a little earlier this year for accepting donations from a sports betting company, before the 2022 election. But do you regret that decision, looking back now, particularly in the portfolio that you're in?

ROWLAND: Well, I made a personal decision that while I hadn't done anything wrong, and certainly this was in the rules and was before I was a Minister, there's two things: firstly, this Government will be judged on its record of delivery, and myself as a Minister on delivery. And I think this discussion really puts into context the wide variety of initiatives that we are taking as a Government.

In fact, I would argue that there is more happening in the last 12 months of this Government to combat the harms caused by gambling that's been done in the last decade. So, we'll be a Government judged on its record. And I made a decision some time ago that whilst I hadn't broken any rules, that I would not accept any further gambling donations or hospitality from wagering companies either, because the community does expect better, and they do expect their representatives to put them front of mind, and that's exactly what I'm doing as Minister, and what we're doing as a Government.

BURNETT: Yeah, you're right, you didn't break any rules, it was below the threshold that needed to be disclosed. But do you think that that suggests that maybe those donation rules and laws need to be looked at a little closer?

ROWLAND: Well, the Government is looking at those rules, and certainly in terms of real time disclosure of donations, I'm in great favour of reforming our donations rules. I think that it is something that's expected by the constituents that I represent, but also by Australians overall, that there be greater transparency, and we know that individual states, including New South Wales, for example, there are caps on the amount of expenditure that is done there.

I think Australians expect that their representatives will do better and will have these - greater transparency and a greater understanding, and I support that completely, and I'll be participating in that debate, and I look forward to our reforms taking place that will really further confidence in the electoral process.

BURNETT: I know you're not looking for any sympathy on this issue, but is it a tough one to navigate as a politician?

ROWLAND: It's always tough as a politician, because democracy means that you need to get out, engage with people, and the reality is that political parties, people who are running, this doesn't come for free. But there are some states that have actually put in place public funding rules.

I mean that's a matter that's being pursued by my most excellent colleague, Senator Don Farrell, who's the Special Minister of State, and through the Joint Standing Committee on Electoral Matters. These issues are looked at very closely, about how they can be improved.

So I am all in favour of that. I think that, again, this is what the public expects. It's not something that's particular to myself or to any political party. I think overall this is about having trust and faith in the democratic process, and ultimately, that's about demonstrating to the Australian people that we're taking action on that front.

BURNETT: Just finally, Minister, I wanted to ask you about misinformation laws which has been on the agenda of late, and spreading misinformation online is obviously rampant and always feels like part of that space, to be honest, but the Government has flagged some new laws to increase fines and give the Media Watch Dog more power. Are those directed at publishers or individuals? Where's the greater need there?

ROWLAND: This is directed at the digital platforms themselves, because we know that mis and disinformation is harmful, and by its very definition, it's information that's verifiably false. What makes these two categories different is that disinformation has the intent, so it's the intent to spread verifiably false information. It's not just information that's false, it's information that's harmful.

So, for example, during the pandemic, we saw examples of this. We even saw ‑ we've seen examples where people have claimed that Corona was caused by 5G towers, and especially in regional areas where people rely on mobile services, you don't want people taking to critical infrastructure and damaging it.

So this is about looking under the hood of these digital platforms, and let's remember they have already signed up to their own industry code about how they will combat mis and disinformation.

This new law is about giving the Regulator the powers to hold the platforms to account, to have new transparency rules, record‑keeping rules, and the imposition of fines for the failure to do that. And I think it's imperative in terms of keeping Australians safe that we have that structure in place; in fact it's one that's been recommended several times from everyone from regulators, like the ACCC to the Australian Communications and Media Authority, and this has been talked about for many years. I announced this in January, we've now got the exposure draft out there, and we encourage all Australians who are interested to have their say.

PETERSON: You're right, easy to regulate, hard to do. Best of luck with that, and the broad scope of that portfolio. Great to see you. Thanks for being in the studio today.

ROWLAND: Pleasure.