Radio interview with Stephen Cenatiempo, 1206 2CC

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: Time now for our local poly-panel. Joining us as they do on a Tuesday is the Deputy Opposition Leader and Nationals Leader, David Littleproud. David, good morning.

DAVID LITTLEPROUD: Good morning. Good to be with you.

CENATIEMPO: And the Member for Eden-Monaro, Minister for Regional Development, Local Government and Territories, Kristy McBain. Good morning, Kristy.

KRISTY MCBAIN: Good morning.

CENATIEMPO: Kristy, I want to start with you. You suggest that the Housing Australia Future Fund is going to be the biggest focus in Parliament this week. I think Katy Gallagher might be the biggest focus.

MCBAIN: Good morning, good to be with you. Can I just add to what you've just said. It's a terrible tragedy that's happened in the Hunter and really, we do need to thank our first responders. I know firsthand the amazing work they do and it can be a very tough and difficult job. Our thoughts are with our friends and family in the Hunter today. There are a lot of questions that have been flying around and Katy Gallagher has come out and responded to those pretty adequately. The problem here is we're focusing on the wrong thing again. This is about an alleged rape that happened in Parliament House. There are obviously some circumstances that happened that people want answers to. This isn't about which politician was going to weaponize claims, which I think is a bit ridiculous. This was about whether the alleged crime was adequately investigated and who knew what that allegation was, and whether the people involved have been adequately supported during this process. It led to significant change in Parliament House. Behaviours and standards have absolutely shifted in the building. We need to focus on the most important thing here, and that is whether people are getting the right support during and after an allegation of this type. The leaking of personal text messages into the media has been pretty damaging for a whole lot of victims of sexual assault out there.

CENATIEMPO: David, is Kristy right there? I mean, the alleged rape has been dealt with by the courts. The way it was investigated has been dealt with by the Inquiry. Surely we do need to be looking at the behaviour of politicians and let's put aside the alleged incident. If there are politicians and media personalities out there politicising and weaponizing the alleged rape of a young woman in Parliament House, that's absolutely disgraceful.

LITTLEPROUD: Well, it is. And let me say there's a few parts to this. The first one goes to the heart of the integrity of Katy Gallagher. She's alleged to have lied to Parliament and that is a very serious, very serious matter. We're given this thing called parliamentary privilege, something that no other Australians are given, and it should be treated with the respect of not lying. Now, if she's lied in Parliament, she should face consequences on that. But the fact that the Labor party weaponised this by asking questions in Parliament is abhorrent. Because let me say that matters of criminal nature, and as serious as sexual assault should never be politicised in Parliament, and should not be where parliamentarians use parliamentary privilege to ask questions about. Our job as political leaders is to create the environment for the police to investigate and the courts to prosecute. To start to come into question time was from Anthony Albanese, it was from Tanya Plibersek, it was from Katy Gallagher and Penny Wong who raised questions about this matter - while there was a criminal investigation underway. As well as court proceedings, it is inappropriate. Politicians should stay out of this. And, yes, there's been reforms that needed to happen. But let me also say there was also reportedly up to $2 million to $3 million given to Miss Higgins. And we, as the Australian taxpayer, should know why and what are those circumstances? Because that's your money. That's not the government's money, that's your money. And when the Chief of Staff who was the person charged with the responsibility of the duty of care of making sure that Miss Higgins was looked after and she was encouraged and given all processes. She has lived up to all that under the processes, whether it be this workplace or any other. Why did the Australian taxpayer have to pay out $2 million to $3 million to Miss Higgins if all the procedures and processes were put in place? I think the Australian taxpayer deserves answers, but this goes to the integrity, particularly after the Prime Minister, when he was elected, said he would bring greater transparency, greater integrity to this Parliament. And this is his first test, his first test of whether he backs Katy Gallagher. Well, open up the books and show us exactly. And if she's lied to Parliament, well, let's see what the consequences is to Katy Gallagher and Penny Wong for that matter, who also made assertions she knew nothing when she did in Parliament. I think it's important for the integrity of our positions as politicians and as the Parliament and for Anthony Albanese, who came on high moral ground. And I hope he's right. I hope he is going to lift the bar, but he has to prove it now. And I think this week could be pivotal for him to do that.

CENATIEMPO: Kristy, isn't that a fair comment? And let's put the incident aside or what the story behind this is, but if a Senator says to a Senate Inquiry, I did not know this thing, but then subsequently says, well, maybe I did know, that's misleading Parliament, isn't it?

MCBAIN: There is not a person inside or outside the building that has done more for women or women's safety than Katy Gallagher.

CENATIEMPO: But that's not the question. It's not about women's safety. It's about if you say one thing and then it turns out that what you said was not the truth, that's misleading. Parliament, isn't it?

MCBAIN: The assertion that was made was that somehow Katy Gallagher had known for weeks and weeks that this was happening or coming. That is untrue. That is what she was responding to. She's spoken to the media. It’s pretty outrageous that David and the Opposition are going after this when they have members of their own party who knew about this for years, who didn't do anything to support the person or people at the center of this.

LITTLEPROUD: No, that's not right Kristy, that’s not right.

MCBAIN: The problem here is you've got reviews that the then Prime Minister said that he would undertake to make sure that people were supported during this process, that have never been released. We still don't have any answers as to who was complicit in this potential cover up of an event that took place in Parliament House. This high moral ground that David and the Opposition are going on is just outrageous. considering there's some serious accusations.

LITTLEPROUD: There’s some serious accusations there Kristy that need to be addressed.

MCBAIN: There was absolutely zero credibility during this.

LITTLEPROUD: You’re saying she wasn’t provided support. The Chief of Staff, Fiona Brown, has come out categorically and said she followed with Finance Department, the process to the letter.

MCBAIN: Who the former Prime Minister threw under the bus during Question Time.

LITTLEPROUD: Hold on, let's take the politics of this. You are making a very serious assertion that lady did her job and to besmirch her reputation the way you have is abhorrent. And then secondly, yes, Peter Dutton did know, but it was his job not to come out in the parliament and talk about it, but to allow the police department who he was in charge of the Australian Federal Police, to do their job. To be able to go without fear or favour, without politicisation, to be able to go on and actually investigate it, not to raise it in Parliament to the low levels that the Labor party did. To stay out of it and to allow the police to do their job. That is what political leadership is. Peter Dutton would have known, but he did the right thing by saying nothing and creating the environment for police to do their job. That's what Ministers should do. And as for the investigation that Morrison started, it actually then went to a point where it went to charges and therefore it was inappropriate, as it was inappropriate for you to continue to ask questions about this matter in parliament, even though it was inappropriate to even start them, but it was inappropriate for a further investigation while there were court proceedings going on. That's about respecting the institutions and the processes that our society is built on, not the cheap politicisation that you and the Labor party.

MCBAIN: I don’t understand the point here, because apparently if the Labor party asks questions it's politicising it. But if the Liberal party and the National party should ask questions it’s ok.

LITTLEPROUD: You shouldn’t be asking it Kristy. It’s a criminal matter, it is inappropriate to ask questions about a criminal matter.

CENATIEMPO: But hang on. The questions that are being asked now are whether or not somebody said one thing and knew another. That's the reality of it here. What we're talking about with Katy Gallagher, as I understand it, is her saying to a Senate inquiry, I knew nothing about this, but now subsequently says, well, I did know something. That's the issue here, isn't it?

LITTLEPROUD: It’s about transparency and integrity and yet it's gone out and within twelve months. Let this be a lesson to us all. Never should any politician raise questions, even ask questions, about criminal proceedings or potential criminal proceedings at all. We should never get into a point where any political party should ask that in Parliament. That is a place for the police to be able to do, and to do their job without fear or favour. And we should never get ourselves into this situation that Labor put us in where we should never ask questions. And if I'm part of any party that goes and asks questions on that, I can tell you I'll square up because it's inappropriate. Police and court should be given the environment to do the job what they're charged with, not take it through Parliament House where the court of public opinion is tried to be swayed. This is unprofessional and it's unbecoming of politicians to be even doing it to start with.

CENATIEMPO: All right, let's talk about some policy. I want to talk about the Housing Australia Future Fund. Kristy, it is obviously the biggest focus for the Government this week in Parliament. The Greens are still holding out on this. Does the Government need to maybe make some concessions on this? Because my biggest concern about this is the sentiment is right, but the actual nuts and bolts are wrong.

MCBAIN: It’s absolutely ridiculous that we're still having an argument. We need investment in housing right across the country. In the last week, I've been in Port Macquarie, in Cairns and in Weipa. I do a lot of travel to regional areas. Whilst there's always some particular locality issues, there is a consistent theme that comes right across our regional areas, and that is workforce shortages and housing shortages. We've got the Opposition and the Greens teaming up to do away with a perpetual fund which would invest into housing. The previous Government left it to the states and territories. We know more has to be done and the three levels of Government need to be working together on this, because this isn't a problem that exists in one particular part of the country, it's in all parts of our country and it's incumbent upon us all to work together. This is 30,000 social and affordable homes. We want to help women fleeing domestic violence, we want to help veterans at risk of homelessness. We want to make sure that we've got key worker accommodation in our regions. I know David knows a lot about this as well, our regions are crying out for investment in housing. We've incentivised build to rent properties to try to get developers to look into that form of housing so that we can get more of it out there. We need this passed so we can get on with the job that people are asking us to do and that's investing in housing.

CENATIEMPO: David, all of that is fair, but I think you're still at the mercy of state and local governments who have got to get rid of the red tape that stands in the way of all this happening. Because the federal government's not going to build a single house.

LITTLEPROUD: No, exactly. And this is not Anthony Albanese's problem to fix, but he's trying to fix, and I give him credit for that. We did, too. We put one and a half billion our model, which was different to borrowing $10 billion, hoping you can invest it and get a return bigger than the interest rate that you're paying on it, and then whatever's left, you actually go and build a few houses with. That's a very dangerous model to go and borrow $10 billion. We had a one and a half billion dollar fund that had direct capital investment with developers to increase supply, because this ultimately comes to an increase supply. This is an abject failure of state and local governments of all persuasions, my mob, Kristy’s mob. We have failed at state and local level for so many years. This is about supply. And the only way to get supply and the way to unlock supply, particularly in bigger urban areas, is to let developers do it. The taxpayers shouldn't have to do it. And this is where we also need to have a conversation, a sensible conversation with Australians, is that if you want to live in a capital city, the 600 square meter block may not be something you get. You may actually only have to live in a unit. We have to go up, not out. And this is the way that you increase supply quickly, but also protect prime agricultural land from urban sprawl. And that's the choice people will have to make. But where there is market failure, particularly in rural and remote areas, that's where government has to inject itself, and particularly federal governments, have an opportunity to inject itself. And that's where our one and a half billion dollar direct fund was cash straight into it to make sure that it happened. But this is where state and local governments have failed us. This isn't Anthony Albanese’s problem. I give him credit for trying to fix it, but this is the wrong way to fix it.

CENATIEMPO: Kristy, that's a fair comment, isn't it? That state and territory governments need to play their game here. I mean, how do you make that happen?

MCBAIN: By making sure that we've got skin in the game. This fund, as I said, is going to be perpetual. It gives some clarity and some certainty to institutional investors and to community housing providers that there is going to be dollars there each and every year, to make sure that they can hinge their own investments and investment decisions off it. We need to be working together. I agree that there needs to be planning reforms across the country to make it easier for people to develop. We need to make sure that we're skilling up local governments with more planners to make sure our DA’s don't get held up. This is the way that we can do that and provide certainty into the system. We need to make sure that people come along this journey, because, as I said, I do a tonne of travel, and housing is one of the top three issues people talk to me about, no matter where I am across the country.

CENATIEMPO: We've completely run out of time. I'd love to go for another hour if we could. David Littleproud. Kristy McBain. Thanks for your time this morning.