HAMISH MACDONALD, HOST: Hope you're having a lovely Tuesday morning so far. It's 23 degrees here in Parramatta Square at the moment. Now, were you one of the many people who thought Badgerys Creek Airport would never happen? 70 years after it was first raised, the second major Sydney airport is expected to open by the end of this year. So these things can happen. But, and this is a question I'd love to hear from you on this morning, Will High Speed Rail ever actually happen here on the east coast of Australia? The idea has been floating around for some 30-plus years. The Federal Government says with this new investment announced this morning of $230 million, the project to connect Sydney ultimately to Newcastle via bullet train could actually start construction in two years or so from now, just in time for the next federal election. The Transport and Infrastructure Minister, Catherine King, is here this morning. A very good morning to you, Catherine King.

MINISTER FOR INFRASTRUCTURE, TRANSPORT, REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT CATHERINE KING: Good morning, Hamish.

MACDONALD: I want to get to some of the specifics of what this money means and does. But what makes this any different to all of the other times that we've heard interested ministers or governments saying, let's get this thing up and running only for it to fall away?

KING: A few things I'd say with this. We announced back in the 2022 election a commitment to get High Speed Rail to Australia. We then legislated the High Speed Rail Authority. We've spent the time doing a business case. We're now entering what's called the two year development phase, which is really detailed designs, like basically going metre by metre along the entire track and designing this thing to make sure we know every single cost, we actually understand the geotechnology and we get all of the planning approvals. So this is a very staged, cautious but purposeful approach to bring High Speed Rail into Australia. We have learnt the lessons from overseas, learnt the lessons, frankly, from Inland Rail here in Australia about what you need to do, because we are determined to bring High Speed Rail to Australia. We think, you know, the business case will show it does stack up in this country. It is a costly and expensive project, but we've got to get it started. We don't want to be one of the few populated countries in the world that does not have a High Speed Rail network. And as you will have heard from the Prime Minister, we think it is time to really get this done in Australia. And this is really part of the next phase of making sure this project actually does come to fruition. But we're taking a pretty cautious approach.

MACDONALD: When feasibility studies have been conducted in the past, ultimately the business case has not been made. So do you think something's different? Has something changed? Have you got private partners that want to invest in this now?

KING: Well, that is again part of the development phase. You know, the cost of this, the cost of any rail projects, they're always big. They're the most costly projects that you can build. But really what we've learned, you know, and I think you referenced Western Sydney International Airport that's due to open this year, is you've got to have the vision, but then you've got to do the work. And I think what we've done before is we've had a lot, we've had vision, we've started to do the work, we've then lost office and not been able to continue that. We're very determined to get this project to a final investment decision in 2028 and then with the prospect once that decision is made to then then start construction end of 28, start of 29. And that Newcastle to Sydney piece is really critical. The population density along that corridor, again, has started to see more investment in the region, the critical nature of the Hunter and Newcastle, which is why we've concentrated on that that area. What the business case will show, which we'll release today, is that the cost-benefit ratio stacks up for that section and, of course, the more sections you add the higher the cost-benefit ratio goes. Provides about $250 billion worth of economic activity, not just in construction but the movement of businesses and new businesses starting up as well.

MACDONALD: 1300 222 702 is the number. We'd love to hear from you on this morning. Catherine King is here, the Federal Transport and Infrastructure Minister at 22 minutes to nine. When you say this stretch, are you looking in terms of the business case just at this initial stage between Newcastle and the Central Coast or also Sydney through to the new airport?

KING: So the first stage 1A to 1B is Newcastle to Sydney Central and that's where the development phase will look at. The business case will talk about from Sydney including from Parramatta, Western Sydney International Airport then to Melbourne and then so it will talk about the whole route but really what are concentrating on, and I think which is a little different to what has been done in the past, is we're really taking this in chunks to say, ok, where is it feasible to do now? How do we actually get construction underway in this section and then the rest is to come. But the business case talks about the whole route.

MACDONALD: Can just address what this particular money, the $230 million is doing? On the text line Frank is asking, saying “They're joking, right? Hamish, the Labor government must be in another time zone. $230 million what's that going to get them a wheel on a super fast train?” What's this money for?

KING: So it isn't to construct the railway. And you know, your listener is quite right, you can't construct a railway like this for that amount of money. This is the design work. So if you think about it, getting the engineers on the ground going metre by metre, basically along this track, and saying, okay, where is the rail going to go? What sort of rail are you going to need? What is the signalling system? How are the tunnels going to be designed? So all of that design work, getting early contractor involvement in that design work so this is really construction ready. That is normally what you would do on any project. But we're really getting, we're investing in this detailed design work now. And so that is what this money goes towards. So the money also starts to look at, how do you how do you build the rolling stock here? What do we need to do to bring an advanced manufacturing facility to be able to build that rolling stock here, as well what do the station boxes look like? What are the designs? So it's really that absolute detailed design, metre by metre along the track, and that is really complex work, but we'll see that early contractor involvement, which again, we've learned getting early contractor involvement in the design really does help keep your costs down when you start to go into the construction phase. So you don't suddenly have a concept, you actually have that detailed design ready to go.

MACDONALD: And a clarifying question for listeners, would you be using the existing track locations, replacing them with high speed tracks. Or would we, are we talking about totally separate tracks for this?

KING: We’re talking about totally separate new tracks. The existing rail line has a lot of challenges with a lot of curves in it. Really for High Speed Rail you need a straight line, and there's a lot of lot of difficulty with the existing track to be able to do that. So this is a new, brand new rail line with quite a few tunnels through it as well.

MACDONALD: Do you ever watch Utopia minister? A lot of people writing to me about Utopia this morning.

KING: Of course, I do. Of course. I don't think there'd be any Infrastructure Minister that doesn't. An excellent show.

MACDONALD: Do you have a sort of warning bell in your own mind? Or at meetings where you say, Guys, this is all getting a bit too Utopia?

KING: Well, it's why, you know, I'm a very practical person. I've been around for a long time, and I'm building lots of projects across the country at the moment. We learn lots of lessons from all of those. I'm pretty practical. I focus on, you know, what do we need to do next? How do we actually make this this work? How does it stack up financially? How do we actually make sure we've got all of the people in place to deliver this rather than, you know, just putting out press releases and coming up with nice ideas. Politicians, we can sometimes do that, but we can't build a rail line like this without really complex and serious people working on it, then that's what we've got.

MACDONALD: I'm getting so many questions coming through. Minister are you happy to answer a couple of questions?

KING: Sure.

MACDONALD: Straightforward, nothing too, too curly, we hope. But I suspect some of this will be down to whatever this two year process discovers. James has got a question from Ettalong Beach. What is it?

LISTENER: Well, I'm curious to know how the government's going to keep control of pricing for tickets, because every time private enterprise gets involved in infrastructure, we seem to lose control of pricing, electricity, for example. How's the government going to control the pricing?

MACDONALD: Okay, Minister.

KING: So again, part of the business case does talk about the work we've done on ticket pricing, because obviously, if you price too high and then people don't use it, then it becomes, you know, a completely unviable project. So part of the cost benefit has had to look at that and how you keep pricing in control. And so what, obviously, as a Federal Government, we won't want to operate a rail line. We will need to get operators in. But part of the development phase is to look at what does that look like, and how do we continue to make this a product really that is viable for people. We want to try and get people. We don't want them having to drive. But one of the things that you see obviously now is the large number of tollways that people are currently already paying. So trying to factor all of that in and bring up, bring it in at a price where it is affordable for people and usable, but also remembering that this is about, whilst we're building a rail line, this is actually about trying to think about, how do you actually grow the economy of the Hunter, and focus on the Hunter. So in fact, people are not always commuting, but bringing some of those businesses out of Sydney and actually locating their headquarters or locating their premises in the Hunter, where you might occasionally go to Sydney, but because you can actually have that quick travel, you can actually have people working in Newcastle or in the Hunter. So there's a lot of that which is important.

MACDONALD: Do you have any concept of how much the overall project will cost to get it from Newcastle to Sydney?

KING: Yeah, so again, the business case. So the figure is around, and it's a big figure, there's no doubt about that, is around $55 billion that that includes the trains, so the rolling stock and the advanced manufacturing facility, includes stations and all of the signalling. So that is everything that you need to actually have a railway. So construction costs of the line itself is in the vicinity of around $31 billion. It is a very big project. It will be something we will be looking at private sector investment for as well. If you look at High Speed Rail 2 in the UK, for example. I think some of the Canadian super funds are funding that, and part of the role of government is to try and de-risk the project, to get that level of investment in and again, all of that will be part of the development phase.

MACDONALD: You'd understand why people here in Sydney particularly can be quite sceptical of public private partnership. Think about the tolls. Think about electricity, for example. Think about all sorts of scenarios where governments have gone down this path. Are you going to do anything different that ensures that the population is ultimately the beneficiary, that it's that it doesn't, we're not sort of decades down the track trying to unpick contracts?

KING: Yeah, absolutely. And I think again, it's why we are taking a really cautious approach and providing that opportunity for two years of the development phase, is to have a look at it, you know, like, as you point out, not all public private partnerships are equal. There are ones that have worked really well, and you've got to keep in mind, what is the policy objective here? The objective here is to actually provide a High Speed Rail line that people are able to afford and use, and grows the economy of the Hunter and Sydney and all the way through the Central Coast and doing that, so part of the development phase is looking at what, what does that look like? There's a lot of overseas interest in this project. I met with the International High Speed Rail Authority, the Japanese, just yesterday, they are very interested in this project as well. So there's quite a bit of work to do over the next couple of years about how do we get the financing right, as well as the detailed design work, but the policy objective, we have to keep that in mind. We're trying to get a rail line that's affordable and that people will use, because that will then be proof of concept that this can work in Australia.

MACDONALD: A question from Neil in Castle Hill, good morning, Neil, what's your question for the minister?

LISTENER: Yes, good morning. I'd like to ask the Minister about their support for local manufacturing. I work on infrastructure projects for a company that supplies power cables. But the reality is that made in Australia is always 10 to 15% higher than overseas. So what's the Minister's view on this?

MACDONALD: Okay, Minister?

KING: So part of the, yeah, great question. In April, the High Speed Rail Authority, that's based both in Newcastle and Sydney, will be holding an Industry Forum to outline all of the contracts that are going to be let as part of this development phase. And so local procurement is actually part of the remit that they have to try and make sure we get as many jobs and local jobs out of this as possible. It encourages your business to register with the High Speed Rail Authority for the industry opportunity in April, where they will outline all of the contracts that will be let as part of this development phase. We are really serious about building the rolling stock here in Australia. I think one of the things if anyone has had the opportunity to travel over to Perth at all, and you look at METRONET, basically through that process, they rebuilt a rail industry and a rail manufacturing industry in in Perth. We want to try and make sure there is opportunities for rail manufacturing here in Australia. We don't currently have bullet trains being built here in Australia. That technology is not here. So part of the development phase is developing that. And part of the costs of High Speed Rail is, is that advanced manufacturing facility, local jobs, local rolling stock.

MACDONALD: Minister, it is 12 minutes to 9, we have to keep moving. But, I mean, there are plans for a Trump Tower on the Gold Coast. Could we? Could we sell off the naming rights to our American friend?

KING: I think this will be an Australian High Speed Rail, I'm sure.

MADONALD: Trump Trains? It's got a ring to it.

KING: I'll leave that for you as a comment Hamish.

MADONALD: Catherine King, always a pleasure to talk to you. Thanks for dealing with so many of our questions this morning.

KING: Always lovely to be with you, Hamish. Thank you.