Radio interview ABC Perth

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: Six minutes past 10. Nadia Mitsopoulos with you. Well, we’ve been getting a fair few federal ministers passing through Perth these days, and this time Catherine King is in town. She’s the Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government, and with me in the studio. Minister, welcome to Perth, and thank you for coming in.

CATHERINE KING: Thanks, Nadia, it’s such a beautiful place, why would we not come, of course we’d be here.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: Well, good to have you here. A fair bit to ask you, if I can just start with that terrible crash in Daylesford which killed five people on Sunday afternoon. Now that is in your electorate. I understand you went to a vigil there yesterday. Can you just give us an insight into how that community is coping?

CATHERINE KING: Yeah, it’s a really small community and thank you for asking and thank you for the interest. These are, you know, always terrible events in any community, but certainly in Daylesford, it’s a real village, it’s had a lot of residents, long‑term residents, but also a lot of tree‑changers from Melbourne and from other parts of the country as well, a very tight‑knit community, the area is well known to everyone.

I’ve sat there with my son, there’s both the pubs there, but also there’s tables and chairs out, there’s also an ice‑cream shop there as well, so I’ve sat there with you know, everyone sits there with their kids. It was a really warm night as well, so just after, you know, 6:05pm, obviously this incident has occurred, it has seen five, including two children lose their lives, and obviously we’re hearing now a little bit more about the families.

But from Daylesford’s point of view, obviously first on scene, the, you know, the police station is just up the road, the CFA, the SES are both within 500 metres literally of the incident, so they were on scene very quickly. People ran from everywhere to help, the RSL was across the road. So really quite a significant impact on the community over the longer term.

The local council’s putting on counselling services for everybody. There were people; there’s a little memorial on the site that’s popped up that I went to last night as well, and there was a community vigil, which was really just about, you know, wrapping our arms around each other and saying, you know, these people came to visit, they were having a holiday, having a lovely time, and this has happened, and they’ll be forever part of our community, and really that was what the vigil was about last night.

So, yeah, so people are pretty shocked, but of course we’ve now got, you know, five families, or five people who’ve lost their lives and families who are now forever changed as a result.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: You said there will be a lot of support services, but I imagine it’s going to take a while for the community and the family and friends of those who are no longer with us to recover.

CATHERINE KING: Well, obviously a bit later down the track for some of the people who have, particularly witnessed, it was quite a confronting scene, and you know, like even some of the CFA people we were talking to last night, they’re very young, very young volunteers who were on the scene, and they might feel okay now, but often it’s a bit, so one of the messages which I say, you know, all of these incidents, it is okay not to be okay.

Sometimes I think everyone thinks, “Oh, no, you know, everyone else has got it a bit worse than me.” It is actually okay not to be okay and to reach out, particularly, not just our first responders, but even the woman who decided to open her café that day, she was not far from where the scene was, she decided to open her café the next day because she wanted to be available for people to have a space to come and talk, and so she spent the day doing that, but she was at the vigil and wanted to say that it had an impact on her as well, just doing that, but she was glad she opened and had created that space, but, for lots of people it will be on ongoing issue.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: Okay. Look, I appreciate your comments, and obviously our thoughts are with that community, and of course the family and friends of those killed in that crash. You’re in Perth. Why?

CATHERINE KING: Well, we are investing alongside the WA Government $125 million from the Albanese Government and $125 million from the Cook Government to actually electrify your buses, so you’re one of the first right the way across the country who’s got a concentrated effort on actually getting the diesel buses off your system.

We’ll be investing in the charging infrastructure, so for the free bus, particularly that goes all around Perth.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: The CAT buses.

CATHERINE KING: Yeah, the CAT buses, that’s what you call them, and we have trams in Melbourne, so I don’t know,I wasn’t quite sure what the name was there.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: We used to have trams in Perth.

CATHERINE KING: I know, we used to have them in Ballarat as well, where my home town is as well, we love them. And then, and the WA Government is buying the buses and locally manufactured buses as well, so again, a great manufacturing story.

So really I’m here just to see the sort of first contracts being awarded to start to put that charging infrastructure in place to basically do Perth’s bit to actually get transport down to zero emissions if we can.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: So it just the one, or will they be all over the city?

CATHERINE KING: They’ll be all over, largely at the depots, because obviously you want to be able to charge them overnight, and they have the capacity to do that, but really, this is just the first contract that’s been awarded for that really, really exciting project, to get some emissions out of the buses.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: You’re also talking about sustainable aviation fuel.

CATHERINE KING: Yeah. Well, I’m heading out to Kwinana to have a look. They’ve got a big proposal with BP. So one of the ways we know for aviation, it accounts globally for about 2.5 per cent of the world’s emissions, and it’s really hard to abate sectors, but trying to get emissions out of aviation is tricky, so sustainable aviation fuel is sort of the first sort of big effort that we’ll make to do that, and you want to produce it locally here.

So I’m going to go and have a look and have a chat to them about what that might look like and what – the Government through ARENA is already putting $30 million across the country for pilot projects for SAF, but really, you’re probably the most advanced over here, and Queensland’s also breathing down your heels as well to try and get a SAF industry up, so really, that’s the other part of my visit today.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: Okay. Catherine King is with me, the Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government. Let’s stay on the issue of aviation, because you would be familiar with that chopper crash in Broome a few years ago that killed the pilot, Troy Thomas, and 13‑year‑old Amber Millar.

Now the Australian Transport Safety Bureau did a report into that crash, it described the pilot as having a risk‑taking appetite. It also found six unreported incidents and accidents involving Mr Thomas. Are you confident there are no more matters to be canvassed concerning Troy Thomas?

CATHERINE KING: Well, what I will say is that it’s really important that we have an independent Civil Aviation Safety Agency that focuses on safety, and the ATSB, whilst they did not find any findings against CASA, what I’ve asked CASA to do is to look at this incident, make sure that there is any other lessons that they would learn from that, and if there’s anything further they need to do, that they need to do so.

I’ve met over the phone with Clint and Fiona, so –

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: Who are 12‑year‑old Amber’s parents?

CATHERINE KING: Unimaginable, unimaginable, and I’ve got a 15‑year‑old, I think all of us can just imagine, you know, what we would feel in those circumstances, and have put them in touch with the head of CASA, Pip Spence, they’ve been talking to her and they’re in touch fairly regularly.

CASA has said publicly, obviously had the pilot survived the accident, they would have taken action against the pilot, but that unfortunately they’re not able to do, he lost his life in that incident as well. They’ve said that really clearly that’s what would have happened.

But again, it’s whether there was any further action in terms of the maintenance of this craft, whether there’s more, broader systemic things that they think they need to do. So they’re continuing to look at that, but ATSB have finished its investigation and didn’t find any direct findings against CASA, and really what ATSB will do, and they’re the investigators, will look at whether there’s any systemic failures that need further work.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: Isn’t the failure here, and I appreciate ATSB has completed their report and they’ve done what was asked of them, isn’t the issue here the fact that there were another six unreported incidents and accidents? I mean this involved a chopper going into the water, one of those incidents involved somebody being injured. I mean, I guess what people are trying to understand is how can that happen, that five or six incidents go unreported.

CATHERINE KING: Well, exactly. To some extent I would say it is absolutely incumbent on everyone in aviation, if there are incidents that occur, like we all have to operate safely. It is difficult for the ATSB or for CASA to be aware of something if it’s not reported.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: But what about if CASA was more proactive, maybe they would have learnt about it, because the problem is they are reactive not proactive.

CATHERINE KING: Well, I think you could say that about all of our safety systems to some extent, but what I –

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: That’s not good.

CATHERINE KING: – what I’d say with this is they can’t be everywhere. Like they just can’t, you know, we can’t have investigators everywhere, but what we can have is eyes on the industry everywhere, and that is incumbent on all of us, if we see something, report it, if we see that there’s unsafe action, or you think there is unsafe action in the industry; general aviation is a big sector, it is everywhere, in small airports, small properties, all the way across the country, it is really important that people report incidents if they think something is happening and report that to CASA so they can investigate, cause they just can’t be everywhere.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: But there’s no presence of CASA in the Kimberley. That’s been ‑  and whenever we talk about this I get ‑ and I’ve already got text messages coming in from people saying that there’s no eyes on the aviation industry in the Kimberley. Is there anyone from CASA there?

CATHERINE KING: I’d have to go back and check that, but what I would say is we are all eyes, so wherever you are, you are an eye on the industry, and so it’s important to report that to CASA. CASA, as I said, are still looking at whether there are other things they need to do. One of the things also –

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: Could they be more proactive?

CATHERINE KING: I think ATSB did not find that, but what I would –

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: But I’m asking you.

CATHERINE KING: No, no, and what I would say is I have got at the moment John Skerritt who used to head up the Therapeutic Goods Administration, I appointed him when we were last in government, it’s a regulatory agency around the safety of medicines and products. He has now left the TGA, and he is undertaking a piece of work for me across CASA, ATSB and AMSA, which is the Australian Maritime Safety Agency, to look at a couple of things. First is sustainable funding models, so we need to make sure we’ve got enough resources so that they can do their jobs, and also to look at the regulatory environment in which they operate in.

So he’s having a look at that for me at the moment, and certainly if there’s anything further that we need to do, or if CASA identifies anything further they think we need to do, then I am up for that.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: It’s 17 past 10. I’ve got the Infrastructure and Transport Minister, Catherine King, with me. So are you aware that CASA is putting another two staff in WA, are you aware of that?

CATHERINE KING: Because they’re independent of me, they have a separate board and they are independent of Government, they organise their own operational arrangements, so they wouldn’t inform me about what they’re doing, but if they are doing that, then that is a good thing. That would be a matter for the board and for the CEO to determine that.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: Does it surprise you that CASA’s not had a presence up there?

CATHERINE KING: I think that –

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: And we know there are problems with the aviation industry.

CATHERINE KING: Yeah. Well, if there’s – and certainly if there are systemic problems, particularly up north that CASA is identifying, and that is a good thing, if they’re putting more staff up there, then that is a good thing.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: What type of new evidence would warrant a fresh inquiry into this issue?

CATHERINE KING: I’m not an investigator, and it really wouldn’t be something that would be ‑ that’s not for me to determine. What I have said, you know, and in the discussions we’ve had with Pip Spence, particularly the head of CASA, is, you know, if there are things that they identify they can do better, then they need to look at that, and you know, talk to me about what they need to be able to do that, and so that’s really where that’s up to at the moment.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: The Coroner here has refused a public inquest into that fatal crash, and it was hoped he would also look beyond just that crash and safety issues generally in the particularly tourism aviation industry. Did you make any representation to support a Coronial inquest?

CATHERINE KING: It would be inappropriate for me to do that. They are obviously independent, they’re part of the WA judicial system as well, it would be inappropriate for me to do that.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: Are you meeting with the Benbow family while you’re in Perth?

CATHERINE KING: Not while I’m in Perth, but as I said, I have met with them, they’ve met via phone with staff from my office, and we’ve put them in touch with Pip Spence.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: Are you concerned about the mounting – well, there is concern at CASA regarding short staffing, bloated work backlogs, key unions involved with CASA, their members walking off the job; are you concerned about CASA’s ability to do their job properly, because these are very serious concerns, when people go on strike, you got to listen.

CATHERINE KING: They’re currently in EBA negotiations at the moment, so I do ‑ they are in Enterprise Bargaining Agreement negotiations at the moment, so some of that commentary has that as a backdrop, so but what I –

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: So are you saying it’s not genuine, the concerns?

CATHERINE KING: – would say is there’s an EBA negotiation happening at the moment, but the other thing that is happening, as I said, is we’ve asked John Skerritt to have a look at the sustainable funding models for the safety agencies across my portfolio.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: And what about aviation in the tourism industry; does that need to be specifically looked at?

CATHERINE KING: Well, I mean it’s very broad, and so really, you know, there are a lot of general aviation operators in the tourism sector, and they all have requirements under CASA regulations, I mean they all do have those.

So if there are people who are operating outside of the regulations, then you know, that is something that is of concern to us, and as I said, in this particular incident CASA has said very clearly, had the pilot survived, then there would have been ‑ they would have taken some action against him.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: I appreciate what you’re saying, but isn’t the question here who is checking them? You can have all the regulations you want, but they’ve got to be enforced, and the whole criticism here is about the lack of oversight, no one’s checking.

CATHERINE KING: And you cannot have a CASA officer at every airport, in every single plane right the way across the country. That is why it is incumbent on the sector itself to report; if people see anything they need to report. Obviously CASA needs to be able to do its job, it needs the resources to do its job, and that’s my job –

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: But it needs to be more proactive, doesn’t it –

CATHERINE KING: – to make sure that’s the case.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: – to be looking at the industry. I’m not saying you have an officer in every plane, but there’s been virtually no presence in WA.

CATHERINE KING: But I would say that it, you know, like they do investigate, you know, they do investigate. But again, if there are things that need to be done to improve, not just CASA’s presence, but what they are doing in terms of general aviation more broadly, then, you know, I’m up for that, and part of what John Skerritt will be looking at is to look at whether the systems are working as they should be, not just at CASA but across all of my safety agencies.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: Twenty-one past 10 on ABC Radio Perth. You’ve confirmed some transport projects are on the chopping block because of budget blow‑outs. Have you identified what road and rail projects in WA in our infrastructure pipeline may not go ahead?

CATHERINE KING: So first I’d say that, you know, we need to look at the whole context of this. So we’ve committed to keeping $120 billion in the infrastructure investment pipeline to build infrastructure. There are 300 projects already under construction, significant ones here in WA obviously are MetroNet, billions of dollars are going into that from both governments, the Bunbury Outer Ring Road, that’s a massive investment, Tonkin Highway, which I travelled on to get here today, again investment, the Tanami resealing, all of those are continuing to go ahead as well as a multitude of projects that are currently under construction.

What we’ve got a problem with though is that the previous Government basically didn’t really manage this pipeline. They saw it as an opportunity, not as something that actually needed to be managed by Government. And so we saw a large number of projects across the country, not just in WA, but come in to the pipeline just in the lead‑up to the 2016 and the 2019 election campaigns.

As a result of that some of them were announced with, you know, not a lot of funding, you know, certainly not enough to build them, some were announced without any state government agreements, so there was no idea from the state whether they put in any money, so I’ve had to do the work of trying to look at making sure we’ve got a pipeline we can actually deliver.

At the same time there are significant cost over‑runs, so the review, you would have heard Jim Chalmers, our Treasurer talk about this figure, there is $33 billion of known cost over‑runs in the projects that we’ve got in the pipeline currently, with a view that there would be more to come.

So in order to be able to fund those so that we can keep completing the projects that are currently under construction, we will have to cancel some projects. There’s not a lot in WA that have been identified as being cancelled, cause most of your projects are already under construction.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: A lot of them are started, but there are some that won’t go ahead. Have you identified some that won’t go ahead?

CATHERINE KING: There will be some that we won’t proceed with, but there’s a very small number in WA. I think most of yours, your Transport Minister, now Deputy Premier, has been pretty good at making sure that those projects are under construction, so most of yours are already under construction. So it’s only a small number.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: Do you know what they are that won’t go ahead?

CATHERINE KING: I do, but we’re not announcing those today.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: So does that mean they’re scrapped or deferred?

CATHERINE KING: There will be a number of – so the review, so this is an independent review, has recommended a couple of things: they’ve recommended cancelling some projects, so there will be cancellations, not just in WA, and only a small number here; they’ve also recommended that there are projects that they view do need to go ahead, but we just don’t know how much they’re going to cost, because that planning work hasn’t been done.

And so we’ll get on with the planning, we’ll get the business cases done, we’ll work closely with state governments about understanding how much this is going to cost and then later commit the construction amount to actually get those done, and that may be that there’s some delay in some of those projects, but I don’t want to commit taxpayer money to projects if I don’t know how much they’re going to cost. Like no business would do that, and I don’t think people would think it’s reasonable for a government to say, “You know, we’re going to build this, but we really don’t know how much it’s going to cost.” It’s how we got into this problem in the first place.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: Speaking of costs, just a question regarding ports. Now the group Grain Growers is calling for urgent action from the federal government to address what it calls sky‑rocketing port access charges. Now one of Australia’s leading container terminal and supply chain operators, DP World Australia, has proposed increases of up to 52 per cent in East Coast container port access charges and similar hikes are already being seen here in WA.

Now exporters say this makes them uncompetitive on world markets and will cost the average Australian more for goods being imported. Now 11 months ago the Productivity Commission recommended implementing a mandatory industry code. Will you take action on this? If so, when, and will you do something about these port access charges?

CATHERINE KING: Well, we don’t own or operate any ports. The only one we own is Darwin, and we’ve leased that. So they’re all operated and owned either privately or by State Governments. So they are questions for State Governments in terms ‑ or the operators of those ports.

We’ve got very little control in terms of being able to actually determine that. We can ask the ACCC, obviously, it’s not my portfolio, it’s in the Treasurer’s, to look at those charges, and you know, certainly can have a look at that, but we don’t own or operate any ports. It’s one of the challenges we have as part of our National Freight Strategy is how, you know, what that consistency is across the country.

In WA you’re lucky, the WA Government does own and operate most of the ports, Queensland’s the same, but most of them are now privately operated and leased to, or owned by private operators who are businesses and make these determinations based on their business [indistinct].

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: If there was an industry code, could that put some level of control on any increase in charges?

CATHERINE KING: Well, codes of conduct, or codes that the ACCC does, they certainly can, they’re generally voluntary, so it would depends on what sort of code it was, and you know, they are generally voluntary, you know, you can go to a regulatory code, but that’s really the first step, you sort of do that along the track, and again that would be a matter for the Minister responsible for the ACCC.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: All right. I better let you go; you’ve got a bus to catch. Thank you so much for coming in.

CATHERINE KING: Good to be with you, Nadia.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: That was Infrastructure Minister Catherine King there. It’s 26 past 10.