HOST KARL STEFANOVIC: YouTube will now be included in the Federal Government's hotly debated social media ban for under-16s, but not without plenty of pushback from the online platform. For more, we're joined by Communications Minister Anika Wells in Canberra. Anika, good morning to you. Nice to see you this morning.

Look, your government's been all over the shop with YouTube. What took you so long to level the playing field?

MINISTER FOR COMMUNICATIONS AND SPORT, ANIKA WELLS: Fresh evidence from the eSafety Commissioner which she gave to me in June, that said 37 per cent of kids had their most recent or most impactful online harm at the hands of YouTube. So they are joining the ban.

KARL STEFANOVIC: So they'll still be able to access YouTube Kids, right, and YouTube in general, but through their parents' account?

ANIKA WELLS: That's right. I mean, YouTube does have educational features. I know my daughter's learnt Numberblocks there. Teachers will still be able to send links home that you can use if you need to. They'll be able to use their own account in the classroom. YouTube Kids still exists for when we do need our kids- there is a place for social media, obviously, but social media platforms have a social responsibility. And with a stat like four out of ten kids experiencing online harm, as the Minister for Communications, I had to act.

KARL STEFANOVIC: There'll be- no doubt, but there'll be absolute mayhem in every household if Harper can't watch YouTube Kids in the morning, let me tell you. But under parental supervision, that's going to be the responsibility of parents to police.

ANIKA WELLS: No, it's not. This is very much a case of us looking after parents. Parents, we have your backs. This is the responsibility of the platform. So what does it look like? Come 10 December, it means that if your kid has a YouTube login or another social media platform login, the platform needs to deactivate it. And the platform needs to take reasonable steps to make sure that kids don't activate new logins. And when they find their way around this, because we know that kids will, God bless them, the platforms take reasonable steps to mitigate that from happening and to correct errors.

KARL STEFANOVIC: Yeah, what does that look like? I mean, I'm not worried about between the ages of, say, 3 and 13 or 14. That's done under their parents’ logins anyway, platforms and account. But that age group there between 13 and 16 are particularly savvy. How are you going to police that?

ANIKA WELLS: Look, these laws aren't infallible, none are. But this is about the chilling effect. And there's a study that asked kids who are 16, 17, 18, do they wish that they had not gotten on social media as early as 13? And they all said, yeah, they regret it. But when everybody's on it, it's a really isolating place if it's not you. Whereas this is now a chilling effect. It's against the law. Nobody's allowed on it. Go out and play on the field. Go play some sport.

KARL STEFANOVIC: It's a good thing. YouTube is galvanising Aussie creators, though, to respond. You worried about them?

ANIKA WELLS: YouTube did send the Wiggles to try and persuade me to their position.

KARL STEFANOVIC: Did they?

ANIKA WELLS: They did, they sent Big Wiggle. And obviously, like, my twins love The Wiggles...

KARL STEFANOVIC: You're joking, right?

ANIKA WELLS: No. And that's all right. I mean, YouTube has creators like The Wiggles. They have a right to exist. The Wiggles are a treasured Australian institution. But like I said to them, you're arguing that my four-year-old twins’ right to have a YouTube login is more important than the fact that four out of ten their peers will experience online harm on YouTube, and they might be two of those four. And I just didn't find that argument ultimately persuasive.

KARL STEFANOVIC: Let me just get this right. So, the Purple Wiggle, or whichever Wiggle, I don't want to identify the Wiggles according to colours, but they're Wiggles and they wear colours. Did they drive their big red car up to Parliament and lobby for YouTube? Did they drive their big red car up to Parliament and lobby for YouTube?

ANIKA WELLS: No, this was Big Wiggle. This was Wiggles Inc, the management around the Wiggles. But I would have been happy to receive any colour skivvy to my office. And I would also note that these are not set-and-forget laws, they're set-and-support, and it's up to YouTube and all the other social media platforms who are impacted by the ban to now work with the eSafety Commissioner around what this looks like for their particular platform until 10 December.

KARL STEFANOVIC: Alright, so that was a hot potato. And you passed on it…

ANIKA WELLS: [Talks over] I cherish it.

KARL STEFANOVIC: … You passed on it. Look, are you worried about legal action?

ANIKA WELLS: I mean, we have had threats come in, but, look, you know, I've got sharp elbows. This is too important for us not to have a crack. They are world-leading laws, and I know that we as the Albanese Government are very proud of that. This is important. Social media has a place. I have kids who use social media, but while social media has a place, persuasive and predatory algorithms do not, and that's what we're cracking down on.

KARL STEFANOVIC: Agree completely. Just finally, on the tariffs, some disturbing information coming out of the US. Donald Trump mentioned that it might be a blanket 20 per cent tariff now. Is that- do you think you're going to get any kind of clarity before August 1 on whether or not Australia will get 10 or 20 per cent?

ANIKA WELLS: Yeah, look, we haven't heard anything to that effect of the new percentage here. Obviously we will continue…

KARL STEFANOVIC: [Interrupts] Is that disturbing for you?

ANIKA WELLS: We will continue to argue robustly that these actions are not those of a friend, and whilst we have the lowest percentage at the moment in the world, these are an act of economic self-harm. They're in no-one's interests, and we'll continue to put that point really strongly.

KARL STEFANOVIC: Worry that it could be 20 per cent?

ANIKA WELLS: I think we haven't heard anything to that effect to give us fresh cause for alarm, I think. And we'll continue to maintain our position that we have been consistent in all along.

KARL STEFANOVIC: Always good to talk to you, Anika. Well done on the YouTube. Thank you.

ANIKA WELLS: See you soon.