HOST NATALIE BARR: In a major backflip by the Government, we've been reporting this all morning on Sunrise, YouTube is now included in Australia's world first under-16 social media ban, with the laws due to take effect at the end of the year.

HOST MATT SHIRVINGTON: Yeah, the changes will mean platforms like Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, TikTok and X, and now YouTube will have to verify that account users are aged 16 or over with hefty fines of almost $50 million for companies that fail to comply. Joining us now is Communications Minister Anika Wells live in Canberra. Great to have you with us. So many people wouldn't consider YouTube to be a social media platform, so to speak. Why has it been added to the list?

MINISTER FOR COMMUNICATIONS AND SPORT – ANIKA WELLS: Because the eSafety Commissioner has new evidence that 37 per cent of under-16s had their most recent or most impactful online harm at the hands of YouTube. And it has the same persuasive algorithms that other social media platforms that are already banned have. So with that new evidence in, I have decided to add them to the ban.

NATALIE BARR: But do you need a login? Can't you just sort of go onto YouTube yourself?

ANIKA WELLS: Well, that's exactly right, Nat. This social media ban is about under-16s not having their own accounts on social media. And there are educational videos on YouTube. Teachers use it in the classroom. Teachers will still be able to send home YouTube links for Numberblocks or what have you, and parents can facilitate kids watching that. And YouTube Kids will still exist for kids to use because social media has a place, I accept that, but persuasive and predatory algorithms do not. And this social media ban is about giving kids three more years or 36 months to work out who they are before social media platforms assume who they are.

MATT SHIRVINGTON: Are you concerned Google has threatened to sue the Government if YouTube was included in these laws? Let me just take you through a couple of states in the US at the moment who have passed similar laws to block younger people from using social media. Utah has been blocked in court because of proceedings. Ohio permanently blocked in federal court to enforce the laws. California temporarily blocked in the Ninth Circuit, pending an appeal. Are you concerned that the laws will pass, then Google will sue and you won't be able to implement them? 

ANIKA WELLS: The laws have passed. They passed last year and we gave a 12-month introductory period for platforms to work with the eSafety Commissioner on what this looks like for them, for parents to prepare, so that we're ready come 10 December. But YouTube's legal threat suggested that we were breaching the Australian Constitution and under-16s' implied right to freedom of political communication because of their right to comment on YouTube videos. But it's that commenting on YouTube videos, it's that endless scroll that is actually the very problem and isn't the educational videos like Number blocks that has utility. So YouTube should be treated like every other social media platform, and therefore it is part of the ban.

NATALIE BARR: So if I'm a 14-year-old in my bedroom, I can go onto YouTube because there's no restriction at the moment and the algorithm will send me adult stuff, won't it? Because nothing is telling it that I'm a kid. So isn't that bad because it's sending me adult content?

ANIKA WELLS: Well, YouTube says that in a logged-out state, you can't see age-restricted content, which means that in a logged-out state, you should not be seeing anything that is R18-plus, for example. So if YouTube is making the argument that it isn't safe in a logged-out state, then that's YouTube that needs to answer why that's the case and make it safe.

NATALIE BARR: Or you'll fine them $50 million?

ANIKA WELLS: For systemic breaches, yes we will.

NATALIE BARR: Okay, interesting.

MATT SHIRVINGTON: Anika, thanks for your time this morning, really appreciate it. And once it is implemented, we'll get you back on to see how it's working.

ANIKA WELLS: Looking forward to it.

MATT SHIRVINGTON: Thank you.

NATALIE BARR: Thank you.