KIERAN GILBERT: Joining me live in the studio is the Communications Minister, Anika Wells. Minister, thanks for your time. Let’s start with today’s announcement. So, you’re looking to restrict this technology. Are you looking at age limits? Who is going to have access to it?

MINISTER FOR COMMUNICATIONS AND SPORT ANIKA WELLS: I think we are acting now because of the explosion of the rate of kids being harmed online with deepfakes. The eSafety Commissioner has told us that the number of kids who have experienced deepfake imagery harm in the past 18 months has doubled, so we have to act. We have to draw a line in the sand and then we have to work to catch the laws up. But I would say, Kieran, it’s not just nudify apps or undetectable stalking apps. It doesn’t just affect kids, it affects adults as well. People who are victims of family and domestic violence have perpetrators use undetectable stalking apps on them and all of us could be subject to nudify harm. You have the right to go on holiday and post a picture of that online without losing your dignity at the hands of AI.

GILBERT: Some of this stuff actually raises the question, why does it exist in the first place? An undetectable stalking app?

WELLS: That’s right. Where these apps are outright predatory, we should eradicate them. And the eSafety Commissioner has some powers to direct platforms in this respect. Some states and territories, we ourselves have criminalised distribution of deepfake imagery. But so far, the laws aren’t fit for purpose in that they deal with the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, you know? After the harm has happened, here’s how you can report that harm. And we want to stop it before it harms people to begin with. And we also want to shift the onus from victims who have been harmed needing to report in order for anything to be done to the platforms who allow this activity to happen in the first place. Why should an app store allow an outright predatory nudify app to begin with?

GILBERT: Yes, indeed. And on the nudification, on that technology, from your understanding, and I know you’re sort of starting the process in a way, but do they have the technology to block it, to block the usage of that? Because our viewers will be well aware, the adolescent use of this and the objectification of kids and students is appalling where it’s arisen recently. Can you block it completely?

ANIKA WELLS: Yeah, I think tech platforms are some of the richest companies in the world. They’re at the forefront of AI. They have incredibly sophisticated geo-blocking technology data use to further their own commercial interests. And I think it’s reasonable for Australians to say, if you want to conduct business on our shores, you need to use that same tech and that same data to do more to protect Australians online.

KIERAN GILBERT: So that in a way might be easier than the age limit. But the trial you did across more than 60 technologies, 50 different providers, it was quite interesting because it was not just one thing that worked. There were various elements to it that can work, can stack up if enough effort’s put into it.

ANIKA WELLS: That’s right, and I think you would have seen me talk about that with the social media minimum age restrictions. This will look different for every platform. They’ve all got their own tech, they’ve all got proprietary technology, they’re all rivals. And what the age assurance trial, all 1200 pages, told us, is that it can be private, it can be effective, it can be efficient. And there’s a myriad of different ways that people on the tech platforms can assure themselves of someone’s age and they can use different layers to make sure that they’ve got that 13 to 16-year-old gap covered. We have enshrined in the national laws that tech platforms cannot require you to upload your own government ID. They must provide a different way, and I think that should be of some comfort.

KIERAN GILBERT: So, in terms of estimation, age inference, verification – at different levels, they can get this done. I just wonder why haven’t they been more cooperative? Why haven’t they leant in more for the process? Because at the moment, if anything, it’s just howls of protest from the industry. Or are some willing to cooperate?

ANIKA WELLS: It’s been the wild west out there, and one of the other things that we are doing alongside today’s announcement, alongside social media minimum age reforms, is the Digital Duty of Care. So that’s in response to the online safety review and that’s to enshrine that tech platforms have a Digital Duty of Care to their users in Australia because they need to do more than they have been doing. Some of them are working with the eSafety Commissioner. There are now industry codes that do more, but not enough. Clearly, in the wake of all of this data we have about how many kids are dying as a result of activity online, not enough.

KIERAN GILBERT: So off the back of the weekend and those protests, they’re legitimate concerns and the PM recognised that. But there’s also misinformation online, isn’t there, in relation to a lot of that stuff. How do you grapple with that? Is there a way that we can be more vigilant as a nation in ensuring that misinformation isn’t just peddled right across these platforms, which happens daily?

ANIKA WELLS: That’s right.

KIERAN GILBERT: And a lot of the time on these matters like immigration.

ANIKA WELLS: And I think that speaks to the Digital Duty of Care, because if you’re a platform and you’re allowing 600 hours of content to be uploaded every minute to your platform, there is a responsibility on you to have some knowledge of what that content is and to police it. Whereas at the moment, the wild west allows uploads of anything and very loose reporting that falls to the victim to report. Or I know I would speak for our broadcasters, if they have entire shows that are uploaded to a platform, the onus is on them to report that to the platform to take it down. There needs to be a Digital Duty of Care.

KIERAN GILBERT: And on that international component, the PM says he’s going to hold a forum on it at the UN. Have you spoken to counterparts? Have you heard much feedback internationally as to whether other nations are going to get on board with what are sort of leading edge reforms here?

ANIKA WELLS: That’s right. And I’ve been working with the Prime Minister on our offering at the UN, because this is a world leading law that has a lot of international interest. So, I think the why is clear, though we’re always happy to talk about why we’re doing this. People are very interested in the how, and that’s what I’m working closely with, not just eSafety, but with our tech platforms about how we do this. And we want to give parents the reassurance that the onus isn’t on parents for this to happen come 10 December, the onus is on the platforms.

KIERAN GILBERT: And finally, we saw that the events of the weekend, a Nazi shows up at Jacinta Allan’s news conference today, yelling out at her. And it’s not specifically your responsibility, but it goes to sort of the tenor of our discourse, civility, cohesion. This is a big part of it, though, isn’t it? What happens online and who gets whipped up, who gets radicalized in these sorts of forums. And then you hear from self-described neo-Nazi, happy to wear that badge, which is absurd, but happy to wear it publicly.

ANIKA WELLS: That is particularly alarming, I think. And I know as a local member, my constituents want to be able to access me. I hold mobile offices all the time. They want me to be available to them to address their concerns. And we don’t do those in parks anymore. We do them in cafes because the AFP security incidents keep increasing. And sometimes you have to do them with coppers standing around, and I don’t think anyone would consider that to be the Australian way. And I think so many people are out there appalled at what has happened over the weekend. We all have a responsibility to speak up and assure people from migrant communities, from vulnerable communities, that we stand with them and this isn’t Australia.

KIERAN GILBERT: And also, I guess the message to those that showed up as the PM said, people of goodwill who have legitimate concerns to say, well, we’re going to take those seriously too, obviously, when it comes to housing and whatever else?

ANIKA WELLS: And I think that’s distinguishing between what are conspiracy theories and, like you were saying, prolific misinformation compared to what are the facts. And online, it’s increasingly harder to work that out for yourself, and anything that I can do as Minister for Comms I’m looking at.

KIERAN GILBERT: Communications Minister Anika Wells, thank you for joining us. Appreciate it.

ANIKA WELLS: It’s a pleasure.