PETER STEFANOVIC, HOST: Social media giants have been given an ultimatum from the government: obey Australian laws or face tougher penalties. Labor’s first compliance report into the social media [ban] for under-16s is being released today. It’s found five platforms, including Facebook and Instagram, have not been complying with the new laws.

Well, let’s go to Canberra now. Joining us is the Communications Minister, Anika Wells. Minister, thanks for your time this morning. So are the social media laws failing?

MINISTER FOR COMMUNICATIONS ANIKA WELLS: Australian kids and Australian parents are not failing. Big tech is failing, and we’ve spent the summer building evidence to be able to take enforcement action. Today we’re publishing the compliance update so everybody can see what big tech has been up to. I’m sure you’ve heard the stories, Pete, I certainly have, from parents across the summer where kids are evading the ban. We’ve been building the evidence as to how they’ve been doing that and how big tech has been failing in their duties to Australian parents, Australian kids and also, like you say, Australian law.

STEFANOVIC: So if laws aren’t working, why would naming and shaming be any different?

WELLS: Firstly, this is about cultural change, and we always knew it was going to be sharpest for children – young people aged between 13 and 16 who are having something taken away from them. This is about the chilling effect that younger kids, your kids, my kids, will not even begin social media until the age of 16. So, one, it’s about the cultural change, and we know that cultural change takes a long time. When seatbelts became mandatory, it took a while for that cultural change to set in, even though these days you would never tolerate someone in your car not wearing a seatbelt.

Secondly, it created a national conversation around our own social media use in the run-up to the 10 December ban. We were all having the discussion around what our own use looks like – are we happy with it? Parents taking themselves off social media in solidarity with their under-16s – these are important policy questions for us to have as a country. Big tech is a huge and unchangeable part of our future, our kids’ future. AI is here and will govern every single element of our children’s lives. There’s no getting around that. But for us to have a discussion around healthy use of it and also what big tech owes to us as Australians and what big tech owes to its customers as it seeks to transact business on our shores.

STEFANOVIC: It doesn’t care, though. So when will these big-tech giants actually face fines?

WELLS: Well, each of these five platforms said publicly in Australia before 10 December that whilst they may not agree with the laws, they would comply with the laws. So they are going back on their own word here. And a $50 million penalty might not seem that much to a multi-billion-dollar company – these are some of the biggest, richest, most resourced companies in the world – but what we’ve learned is that big tech wants to be seen as a good corporate citizen. They’ve had those two cases go spectacularly against them in the United States last week, and the era of accountability is here.

STEFANOVIC: Right. So when will they face their first fines, though?

WELLS: Yeah, so this isn’t just a police officer on shift using a speed radar to catch a speeding car and issue an on-the-spot ticket. This is the eSafety Commissioner going to the Federal Court of Australia and first we have to build that body of evidence. We’re being really transparent about that. That’s why we’re publishing the compliance report. But, in order to go to the Federal Court and ask a judge to issue orders against a platform, you need to have a strong and substantial body of evidence, and that’s what we’re building.

STEFANOVIC: Should the eSafety Commissioner have been tougher and moved faster on this?

WELLS: The eSafety Commissioner has been on the job, not just in the run-up to 10 December, but ever since. And, Pete, I think I could say, frankly, I would have liked to see fines issued on 11 December. You might have liked to see fines issued on 11 December as well. That’s not how this works. This is world-leading law. Countries across the world are looking to us for an example. We need to make sure that we have a rock-solid case, the evidence is good, and when tested in a court of law, a judge will issue a $50 million fine.

STEFANOVIC: What’s the main piece of evidence that you’ve got against them so far that they’re not complying?

WELLS: Well, the compliance report is there for you and anybody in Australia who wants to read. We’re publishing – it’s online now. I would say if you read the compliance report, for me the biggest piece was that 50 per cent of under-16s who are still on a social media platform are on there because that platform has not asked them their age. That is taking the mickey. That is not complying with Australian law.

STEFANOVIC: Okay.

WELLS: We know the big-tech playbook is, as seen the world over, to try and do the absolute bare minimum to skate through, to obfuscate, to delay, to try and throw shade on the laws, deteriorate faith in laws and in regulation. We are seeing all of that play out here.

STEFANOVIC: Minister, on your expenses, why have the results of the audit taken so long?

WELLS: Well, that is in the hands of IPEA, the independent auditor. I have answered all of their questions. I’ve provided all the evidence. I would say, Pete, there are 2000 different items in there. There’s been a lot of travel – as the Aged Care and Sport Minister, I visited 80 different nursing homes across my three years. Dalby, Yeppoon, Maningrida. There’s a lot to get through, but like you, I await their results.

STEFANOVIC: Okay, you stayed clear of the cricket and the tennis all summer. Were you under instruction from the Prime Minister’s office to lay low?

WELLS: I was at the tennis. I was there to support one of our new Australian citizens compete in her first match, Daria [Kasatkina], at the Brisbane International. I had the support of the Prime Minister and I was under no direction. I would just say, Peter, it was a big year last year. The social media ban was huge. We’d had the election. I hadn’t seen my family. I am also the Comms Minister. It was really nice to spend some days watching those big sporting events on the couch with my kids and seeing the experience that someone who’s watching it in Broome or Hobart might have rather than being at the AO itself.

STEFANOVIC: I mean, you were much quieter than usual. It was a political problem for you to handle though, right?

WELLS: Thanks for agreeing I work hard. I’ve certainly been at heaps of sporting events across the summer. It’s indisputable. I was at the Australian softball game. We had a big tour down under from the US team as they build their case to try and be a sport in Brisbane 2032. I went to the Tillies a couple of times. I was just at the Firebirds netball on the weekend. I love the Girls on Track program. I’ve been there supporting them, which – it’s something I try to get to every single year. I love my job. I love supporting sport and I try and do that as honourably and with discharge in all of my duties. It’s a tricky balance.

STEFANOVIC: So Michelle Rowland paid back some of her expenses. Do you expect that you’ll have to do the same for your trips to Adelaide and Thredbo?

WELLS: I believe that both of those trips are firmly within the rules. But in the instance that any of my travel was found to be outside of the rules, I will, of course, repay it. Everybody repays IPEA. It’s something that parliamentarians do constantly. If I am found to be outside of the rules, I will, of course, join those parliamentarians in repaying it.

STEFANOVIC: Wouldn’t it have just been easier just to pay it up, and then the story went away?

WELLS: Pay what up, Pete?

STEFANOVIC: Pay the expenses for flying your family members out to Adelaide or Thredbo. Wouldn’t it have been easier for you just to pay up rather than go through all of this?

WELLS: Well, nobody apart from me flew to Adelaide. That was a work-based trip. I maintain that everything I did there- the purpose of being in Adelaide was for work. And flying my children in and out of Canberra, which I do regularly, is something that falls within family reunion as a way to try and keep families together. I always try and discharge my duties with great care and consideration. I believe I have done that.

STEFANOVIC: Okay. We’re out of time. Anika Wells, thanks for your time. Appreciate it.