ZAIN ASHER, HOST: Joining us live now on The Exchange live from the UN is Australia’s Minister for Communications and for Sport, Anika Wells. Anika, thank you so much for being with us. Just explain to our international audience why Australia is moving now to implement this recent ban, just in terms of raising the minimum age to 16 to use social media.

MINISTER FOR COMMUNICATIONS ANIKA WELLS: We think it was too important for us not to have a crack at this, even if we’re the first to do it, and even if it’s not perfect, it’s too important not to try and make a meaningful difference. We were the first country in the world about 10 years ago to deliver an eSafety Commissioner. It’s unlike other regulators in that it’s actually a shopfront. Australians know that they can go to the eSafety Commissioner if something harmful happens online. But we have statistics- you just mentioned some there. We have statistics now that one child in every classroom has been the victim of a deepfake image or deepfake image abuse, and that’s too horrifying not to act. So, the laws start 10 December.

ASHER: You know, one of the sort of criticisms, as you would expect from the likes of Elon Musk and people who obviously own social media companies who have a vested interest in more people using their platform, of course, but one of the things that some of them are saying is that this limits freedom of expression and also access to information. What do you make of that argument?

WELLS: I don't put much stock in that argument. We are here at the UN. There are international covenants for the rights and wellbeing of children, and when there is too much research now that tells us how harmful the impact of social media abuse is to children's mental health, the number of suicides that happen now as a result of what's happening online, the rights of the child to a childhood for us takes precedence.

ASHER: When you consider how kids being kids will always try to find a workaround- I mean, obviously, social media is addictive, as I know full well myself. When you think about Australia is recommending that AI be used instead of just the typical age verification methods, which clearly a lot of the time don't work. But this idea that teens might go on to other platforms, that they will use VPNs, that they will use possibly fake accounts or other people's accounts. I mean, is that a concern? How do you work around that aspect of it?

WELLS: We're working through all of that. These are some of the world's richest, forward leading and innovative companies. They have age assurance tech that they use for their own commercial revenue. They use for their own purposes. We believe it is reasonable to ask them to use that same tech to protect Australian kids online.

ASHER: How are young people themselves within Australia reacting to this ban and their parents too?

WELLS: Parents are overwhelmingly relieved, I think. This is a very popular policy. And I also think that sometimes, you know, if you show some leadership, good policy is also good politics. Yes, we're going to be the first in the world to do it. No, it won't be perfect on 10 December. But I think parents feel, it's almost like the genie's out of the bottle with the internet. There's a helplessness around what is actually still possible, but if government shows leadership, there is A possibility for us to still make tangible differences to save kids online.

There's a mix of reactions. Some kids have said to me they're relieved and they wish it had happened earlier for them. Some kids have said to me they're relieved that they're not on social media yet so this won't be a problem for them, and some kids who are caught in that 13 to 16 gap who have a social media account that will be deactivated, look, there is some trepidation around that, I won't lie, and we're looking at ways that we can support them and their families when this happens.

But like you said, messaging services, gaming services, they're still available. So, because gaming is classified through the national classification scheme, it's regulated a different way. So kids will still be able to be on things like Roblox or things like a messaging service to connect with friends, but really ultimately we want to get them off the screens, back onto the footy pitch or back into an art class or interacting with each other in real life.

ASHER: And just in terms of criticism within social media, how much criticism has there been about potentially government overreach, that this should be the parents who decide how long their kids spend on social media, not the government?

WELLS: Well, this is still a matter for families to determine what screen time looks like for them in their households. I guess as a government, the Prime Minister led here and took the view that social media platforms have had 10 years to do this on their own terms. They knew the damage that was out there. They knew about the deaths that were happening on their platforms. They chose to do nothing, so we've had to come in and do it for them. And I think it's reasonable for them if they want to come and transact business in Australia, they want to make profits in Australia, they're welcome to do that. Social media has a purpose but they should also be able to have a duty of care to Australian kids online, and that’s what these laws will do.

ASHER: All right. Minister Anika Wells, thank you so much. Appreciate it.