PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: Now the Government also made a significant announcement on taking on the tech giants today, releasing draft legislation for the News Media Bargaining Code. Meta, Google and TikTok will face a new tax if they fail to pay for the news content that they publish on their social media platforms under a set of draft laws. For more on just how that will work, I spoke to the Communications Minister, Anika Wells.

KARVELAS: Minister, welcome to the program.

MINISTER FOR COMMUNICATIONS ANIKA WELLS: Good to be with you.

KARVELAS: Have you consulted with the social media companies that will be affected by these changes? Because it hasn't been smooth sailing over compliance with a couple of other things - the social media ban, other issues too, of course. They've pulled out of Scott Morrison's previous scheme. Why will this be different?

WELLS: Minister Mulino and I have consulted broadly in the run up to this next phase of consultation. We released the exposure draft and discussion paper today and we don't believe there’ll be any surprises in what we've released today based on our discussions with stakeholders. I guess the difference here, to pick up the second half of your question, is that you must pay the incentive. And it's an incentive because if you choose to do deals with news organisations then you'll be paying far less in funding than you would if you choose to pay the incentive.

KARVELAS: So, your whole message to them is, basically, you'll get a discount unless you refuse to pay.

WELLS: We want these deals to be done. It's everybody's first preference that there are deals struck between news organisations and platforms, because we want the work of Australian journalists covering Australian stories to be valued fairly. And in order for that to happen, we need those deals to be done. And the incentive and the distribution mechanism for that incentive, they will flow on if those things don't happen. But primarily, we absolutely want these deals done.

KARVELAS: Is the News Bargaining Code still helpful in a world where it's artificial intelligence that's mining the content of journalists?

WELLS: Well, this is us today saying that the News Bargaining Code isn't working, and we're taking steps to fix it - that's what the News Bargaining Incentive is designed to do. I think with AI, that's obviously an area of policy that six or seven different ministers across the Cabinet have carriage on in different areas. The difference here, I guess, is that if an ABC journo writes a story that goes up on ABC News and that is shared on a particular social media platform, that's a very different output, if you will, than if someone goes to ChatGPT and says, summarise this story, and that same journo's piece is one of 20 stories used to summarise the content.

So, for that reason, we think there's other ways like the kind of, copyright work that the Attorney-General's doing that means that we don't address that directly in this exposure draft

KARVELAS: Okay. When you say as you've set it up, it's an incentive because there's an incentive to basically pay less or be hit by the Government's higher price that gets redistributed to these organisations based on the number of journalists they have, how about if they still refuse to pay? What happens then?

WELLS: Well, they must pay - that's the Australian law. This is why we are taking steps to improve how the News Bargaining Code works through the News Bargaining Incentive.

KARVELAS: But they could just walk away, right? Walk away from Australia?

WELLS: Well, I guess previously they have said in another sphere of the communications portfolio that they will respect the domestic laws of Australia. And we know from consultation both with the platforms and from consultation with the media companies who've been negotiating with platforms that, depending on which platform you're talking about, they are looking to do these deals. They've been holding back because they haven't had the exact wording of the exposure draft. That uncertainty ends today. We have published it, so now we can really get into it.

KARVELAS: Okay. Given how much these tech giants actually make, which is just, you know - a little hint to the viewers - a lot, this isn't actually much money for them, is it? Why did you go for such a low ball price?

WELLS: I wouldn't call it that at all. It's based on consulting with everybody about the original deals that were done under the original News Bargaining Code, like you said, that kicked off back in 2021. For me, as the Communications Minister, it is about making sure that we actually have enough Australian journalists so that we can cover Australian stories and that work that is done by Australian journalists is valued fairly so that we actually have a sustainable, vital news media sector moving into the future. It's obviously an industry that's changing very rapidly and we need to be adaptable to that.

But at the moment, you hear about layoffs, you hear about newsrooms sacking journalists - nobody wants that. And I want to make sure that if you're a high school student in Mount Isa or in Broome or Devonport and you want to be a journalist, you want to tell Australian stories, that there's actually still pathways left for you to do that - cadetships, places where you can study, places where you can work that are still in your area. And that's why I've made the decision that the distribution mechanism should be based on numbers of journalists employed, because that incentivises news organisations to employ journalists.

KARVELAS: LinkedIn does not appear in the legislation's initial scope, despite distributing news to Australian users. I think it's the Microsoft-owned platform also that's exempt. I think tech giant Apple is also exempt. Why are they all exempt? Why are some in and some are out?

WELLS: Well, it's designed to capture the big three, and it's designed to, like I said, we're not trying to reinvent the wheel here, we're trying to improve the News Bargaining Code so that it actually works as it was originally intended to do. So, capture the original principles behind this, capture the distribution of news stories where it is being most widely distributed, and to get that work valued fairly.

KARVELAS: You said there's no requirement for services like Meta, TikTok and Google to carry news, so you don't mind if they pull news from their platforms?

WELLS: No. I'm saying that even if they choose to pull news from their platforms, they will still be required to do deals or pay the incentive.

KARVELAS: So they just- that's going to be absolutely mandatory?

WELLS: That's right and we will collect those payments through the usual channels.

KARVELAS: All right. So the United States Government views the News Bargaining Code as a trade barrier. Is it a trade barrier to US companies?

WELLS: This is an incentive designed to improve the original work of the News Bargaining Code and make sure that it's fit-for-purpose. This is an incentive to value the work of Australian journalists for all that they currently do, and to make sure that we still have a vibrant and sustainable news media sector that we all need in in order to preserve a thriving Australian democracy.

KARVELAS: So do you expect a backlash from what's a very pro-tech Trump administration?

WELLS: Well, this is a real public policy priority of the Albanese Government, we've made no secret of that and it's a long-standing one as well. Like I said, no surprises today. And we have consulted all the way through. Everybody is aware that this has been coming. Nobody should be surprised by what's in it, and we make no apology for putting the interests of Australian democracy first here, and taking steps to preserve it.

KARVELAS: And have you- you said everyone's been consulted. That means you've been consulting the Trump administration over this?

WELLS: Everybody within the Albanese Government who maintains these relationships has been aware and been brought on the journey.

KARVELAS: So they've been told to make sure that the administration knows we're going to do this?

WELLS: I'm not going to get into the ins and outs of it, PK, because that hasn't been my role in particular, but yes, no surprises today.

KARVELAS: It's just more about whether they respond in a way that's very negative to the Government. I mean, that's something that you're anticipating or do you think you won't get that kind of negative response?

WELLS: I'm not going to get into hypotheticals about how other administrations respond to the domestic priorities of our Government. I'm going to say that we make no apology for taking steps to preserve news journalism and the jobs of Australian journalists and the pathways for Australian kids who might want to pursue Australian journalism and tell Australian stories into the future.

KARVELAS: Big question, because there's a lot of concern that it's just taken so long, why did it take so long to land at this?

WELLS: It's complex policy. Like you're saying, different elements of this change almost by the week in terms of how much tech is advancing and changing the nature of the landscape in news media here. I don't think that anyone apologises for working through that methodically, consulting with everybody. And even now, we're releasing an exposure draft, and Minister Mulino and I are serious and sincere when we say that we want to consult with everybody about some of the elements out of that.

I've got carriage of the discussion paper that talks about what that distribution mechanism looks like should we reach a point where people aren't doing deals and we have to move to the incentive and distribution mechanism. That means we have to cover really important topics like defining journalism or defining journalists, looking at whether we need to create loadings so that the number of journalists’ formula takes into account the particular needs of rural and regional Australia. So I'm looking forward to getting into all that with our stakeholders, as does Minister Mulino.

KARVELAS: Just on some other issues, will you introduce your gambling advertising reforms to Parliament in the May sitting weeks? When are we going to see the legislation?

WELLS: As quickly as possible. You've seen that we will introduce that in the winter sittings. It's obviously busy traffic for all of us ministers trying to draft legislation to introduce to the Parliament, but we will absolutely be introducing that without further delay.

KARVELAS: Okay. And just finally, the Prime Minister has really dismissed the Coalition's fuel reserve plan. He attacked Angus Taylor's credibility. But why not have a reserve which is 60 days rather than 30 days? That sounds like a common-sense policy, doesn't it?

WELLS: Well, it's not a common-sense policy that Angus Taylor took up when he was the minister with carriage for the area. He offshored our reserves to Texas. He allowed four of the six refineries to shut down here in Australia on his watch. So we're not going to be taking any lectures from him over having to clean up the mess and …

KARVELAS: [Interrupts] Sure, they got to 30 days, though, and so sure, you can have a debate about how many days. Now they want to increase it to 60. Why wouldn't the Government want to increase it to 60 too?

WELLS: We're just not going to take lectures from that person in particular, but we are doing everything we can to shore up supply. And that's why you've seen the Prime Minister, you've seen the Foreign Minister, travelling around to different countries, taking steps internationally, whilst we in the Parliament took several steps and have done since Parliament recessed until we come back for the Budget, to make sure that we are shoring up supply in what are quite tricky international circumstances.

KARVELAS: Yeah. Because people are concerned, of course, about the longer term vision. Yeah of course, right now matters, but the next crisis, given we have them so often – and I think our viewers will agree with that, it seems like we're constantly in crisis – don't we have to have better long-term planning?

WELLS: That's what we're doing. And just because we don't necessarily invite the lectures of one person with history in this area doesn't mean that we aren't also doing that – that, that isn't forefront of the work of the Albanese Government, of the Cabinet, and then of the Parliament when it's sitting.

KARVELAS: Minister, thank you so much for joining us.

WELLS: Have a good afternoon.