JAMES GLENDAY, HOST: Communications Minister Anika Wells is urging the Senate to pass laws this week strengthening the under-16 social media ban. The bill would bolster the eSafety Commissioner’s powers and double the maximum penalties for tech companies which breach the ban. The government is also proposing to give users the choice to switch off their algorithm in its long-awaited digital duty of care legislation draft, to be released this week.

[Unrelated content – other headlines]

GLENDAY: Let's get you some more now on the government's social media plans and we're joined by the Communications Minister, Anika Wells, who is in Canberra. Anika, welcome back to the program.

MINISTER FOR COMMUNICATIONS ANIKA WELLS: Great to be with you.

GLENDAY: Now you want people to be able to turn off their social media algorithms. How would this work?

WELLS: We want to give Australians more choice over what they see on their social media feeds. We want Australians to make that choice and we want big tech to offer basic safety standards to Australians, particularly to Australian kids, in the same way that we expect industries like the car industry or the food industry or the toy industry to do that. Big tech is not a protected species and they should offer their customers basic safety standards.

GLENDAY: Okay, so practically how would this work? I open Instagram. Will I get an alert to try to turn off my algorithm? Will I just see the people that I follow if I do this or will I get ads as well? Take us through it.

WELLS: Well, we're shortly to reveal the exposure draft where you'll be able to review all the detail. That's not out yet. But I've been working on this for a year. The Digital Duty of Care was one of the recommendations in the Online Safety Act review. And I know Australians are clamouring for more choice over what they see in their feed. We want social media companies to offer Australians that choice. We want them to respect that choice. And if they don't, they will face significant penalties.

GLENDAY: Is it going to be buried deep within an app, though? Or is this going to be something that's really easy to do, toggle on or off the algorithm depending on how you're feeling?

WELLS: That's something that we'll work through with our experts. You would expect that, as the Communications Minister, I take advice from my technical experts about how we achieve this. But the policy intent is clear. Australians want more choice. We want to give that to them and we want to hold big tech to account. We want them to observe the same basic safety standards, particularly for our children. If you walk down the toy aisle in Big W and you see plastic toys, and electronic toys and iPads, you want all of those manufacturers to have abided by basic safety standards when they’re selling something to our kids and that's what big tech should have to do.

GLENDAY: Generally, if you're buying a toy, to use your example, it's generally pretty clear on what you're getting. Is it going to be very, very straightforward to turn an algorithm off?

WELLS: Well, with Australian children, like I said, we'll reveal the exposure draft soon and we'll work through it with the Parliament.

GLENDAY: We'll have to wait and see. Can I ask then, we had the Opposition on before, they're raising some concerns around freedom of speech, maybe they'll do a deal. The Greens are very keen to do a deal but they want an opt-in system where you have to turn the algorithm on. If the algorithm is as bad as you say, surely that's a good starting point?

WELLS: The Coalition are in all sorts over this. They have people who agree that we need to do more to offer Australians choice of the algorithm. We need to do more to protect Australian kids online. They've also got people who are arguing about free speech. But at the same time, they're trying to introduce amendments to criminalise burning the flag. Riddle me that. We want to ask big tech, and ensure that big tech, identify risks on their platform, we want to make big tech mitigate against those risks on their platforms, and if they don't we want them to face really significant penalties.

GLENDAY: Now some content creators and public figures try to use the algorithm to get their content out into the world to a broader audience. This is one example I found.

[Excerpt]

WELLS: At the last budget, Labor told housing investors, or Ooshies collectors, you can keep using the tax system to buy Ooshies, but only new ones. In turn, that means more new Ooshies to rent, and more existing Ooshies for first-time buyers.

[End of excerpt]

GLENDAY: Now, of course, that was you, Minister, using Ooshies to try to explain the housing market and your property tax changes. Now, lots of other people try to get their message out into the world using an algorithm, and they don't have access to TV shows and newspapers like you do, particularly small businesses. Some of those businesses are concerned for what those changes might mean to them. They use social media to drive sales. What would you say to them this morning?

WELLS: I am working to get something through the Parliament that gives Australians more choice. We know that a lot of Australians appreciate the algorithm both for the enjoyment they get out of it or the utility that they get out of it, seeing local businesses in their suburb. A lot of Australians will want to choose the algorithm. But we think that big tech should offer them the choice in the first place and they should respect that choice, and that's why we want to legislate a digital duty of care that ensures some basic safety protections on an industry that hasn't had to observe it, unlike every other Australian industry, and we should give Australians more choice over what they see on their feeds.

GLENDAY: We'll have a look at what changes are actually proposed and maybe we'll be able to chat with you later in the week once that's public.

Australia has an under-16 social media ban. We're coming up to a year of that. But a lot of parents tell us their kids have no trouble accessing it. It's one of the things we've heard as we've travelled around the country. Who's enforcing this? Have there been any enforcement action?

WELLS: So under the laws, the eSafety Commissioner enforces this by taking big tech to the Federal Court. There are five investigations underway at the moment and I listen to expert advice. The eSafety Commissioner asked the Parliament for more powers to be able to strengthen those laws and hold big tech to account. The Coalition and the Greens have been dawdling now for 10 weeks. We needed these laws weeks ago. They've given big tech weeks to prepare. The Coalition and the Greens should pass these laws. I haven't even had amendments from them at this point. Australian parents are relying on the parliament to look after their kids online. This is a way we can give the eSafety Commissioner a better way to do that and we should have done it weeks ago.

GLENDAY: Yeah, okay, so we're 10, nearly 11 months into the social media ban though. Is it working in the way that you'd hoped it would?

WELLS: I always said that this would look imperfect on the way through, much as Australian parenting looks imperfect on the way through. It's like under-18 drinking laws. There are still plenty of under-18s who drink, despite that being a law. It's about setting a standard, it's about setting a culture, and it's about empowering Australian parents to have those discussions. Alongside the fact that big tech is absolutely taking the mickey in this space, and we should do more to hold them to account, and that's why we want the Parliament to pass these laws this week.

GLENDAY: Just before I let you go, One Nation's put out a press release. It wants a quarter of workers' superannuation contributions to be able to go directly to them to help them pay for mortgage and rent. What do you make of this idea?

WELLS: It's now beyond any doubt that any government with One Nation in it will cut workers' super. Labor is the party of super. One Nation is a party that is anti-worker. They're anti-wage risers, they're anti-super. We will fight to protect Australian super.

GLENDAY: Anika Wells, thanks for your time this morning. Have a good morning.