CRAIG ZONCA: As we’ve been talking about, the Federal Government’s world-first social media ban for under-16s, it comes into effect from today but the Minister responsible, Anika Wells, the federal member for Lilley here in Southeast Queensland, is attracting headlines for different reasons, namely her use of taxpayer dollars for travel.

LORETTA RYAN: We’ve heard about flights to New York with staffers totaling more than $90,000, flights for her husband to join her at big sporting events, including AFL Grand Finals and the Formula One in Melbourne, and thousands of dollars in bills for COMCARs to wait for her at such events.

ZONCA: The Minister, Anika Wells, good morning to you.

MINISTER FOR COMMUNICATIONS AND SPORT ANIKA WELLS: Good morning, Craig. Good morning, Loretta. Hope you’re well.

RYAN: Minister, before we get to the social media ban, we need to put some questions to you about the travel entitlements. You’ve stated your travel in question was within the rules, but how do you think it sits with community expectations?

WELLS: Well, like you say, these rules are at arm’s length of parliamentarians. They were set back under the previous government, and I have followed all of the rules. I am completely confident that all of my travel is within the guidelines and just for, I guess, out of an abundance of caution and given there’s been so much public scrutiny over it over the past few days, I’ve been happy to refer that to IPEA, who’s our independent regulator in travel, for them to have another look.

RYAN: So what are you expecting will come out of that?

WELLS: Well, like I said, I’ve followed all of the guidelines. I’m completely confident that everything I’ve done is within the rules that parliamentarians must abide by. And that’s what I expect IPEA will find again, because like I said, some of this travel is across the last three-and-a- half years, there’s never been a problem from IPEA, the independent regulator, with all of my travel as I’ve disclosed it. But just for the avoidance of doubt, I’m happy for them to have another look, so I’ve self-referred.

RYAN: When these travel things come up, do you first consider how it might look to the public and think about maybe I shouldn’t take it?

WELLS: Absolutely. I am incredibly serious about my work. I work really hard and I try really hard every single day to discharge my duties. And I guess I’d put to you, Loretta, I’m the Australian Sport Minister. I go to Australian sporting events. I work at them. The stakeholders that are there expect to see me at them, expect to be able to talk to me there about different matters of sport policy. You would expect the Sport Minister to meet athletes where they are at. We’ve got to see things on the ground. That’s the same for all policies. The same as when I was the Aged Care Minister, I went to regional and remote aged care areas because delivery of services there looks a bit different. And you want the minister to be on the ground seeing that, learning that, so that I can make better policy decisions. It’s the same in the Sport portfolio. That’s why you would expect the Australian Sport Minister to go to sporting events.

And I guess the counterfactual, Loretta, is the expectation that the Sport Minister doesn’t go to sporting events, doesn’t meet athletes where they’re at, doesn’t meet with stakeholders on the ground where they’re delivering our policy, and that I make all of those decisions that impact all of their success, all of our success as a sporting nation building to Brisbane 2032, from behind a desk.

ZONCA: I get that expectation of you as Sports Minister to be at their events, but for those criticising the excessive spending, in their mind, they’re saying, yeah, fair for you to go, but does your husband, should he be able to enjoy the AFL Grand Final or Formula One or Boxing Day Test? The list goes on.

WELLS: Parliamentarians have guidelines for family travel. They aren’t new. They were set under the previous government. We all abide by them. And, I guess, no one expects any forgiveness for the political class, I understand that. And yes, I always think about how this is going to look to people when we make decisions about when we use the family travel entitlement. I think I saw that I’m 34th across the country, and I respect that everyone’s going to have a look at that, everyone’s going to have their own opinion and that those numbers might cause a gut reaction in people. I do understand that, Craig, and that’s why I’m happy to refer again back to IPEA, the independent regulator, for them to have another at all of it, just for everyone to have complete confidence.

ZONCA: And Minister, you say you consider how it looks. Do you acknowledge that this is not a good look?

WELLS: Look, I appreciate there’s been a huge amount of public scrutiny of this, and I’ve been happy to answer questions. I’m on here with you, Craig, and I’m happy to answer questions as long as you want to go, noting that I am out and about a lot this morning talking about the social media ban, so I do have other media commitments to get to. But I absolutely understand, appreciate and agree that parliamentarians’ entitlements should be scrutinised. I agree with that. And that’s why, for absolute transparency, I’ve always disclosed everything. I have always followed the rules and I’m happy for the independent regulator to have another audit of my travel so that people can see that as well.

ZONCA: Okay, well, let’s move on. The Sport and Communications Minister, Anika Wells with you. Let’s talk social media ban – what’s your message to parents this morning?

WELLS: Change has begun. And we already know that TikTok has deactivated 200,000 accounts. There’ll be hundreds of thousands of social media accounts that are deactivated today or in coming days or weeks, and that is a brilliant thing. This is one of the biggest social and cultural changes that our nation has faced since the pandemic. It is profound reform. I think it should be a source of national pride for us all that the world is really watching. And I hope whilst, let’s all acknowledge, this is really hard for teens who are having something taken away from them today, for everyone to come, for all the children who don’t have social media accounts yet and will live their lives according to this law, it’s truly going to change a generation.

RYAN: What would you say to mums and dads who have told us they will actively work with their children to find a way around the ban?

WELLS: Look, people don’t need to agree with the law. I can’t think of any law that is unanimously popular amongst the Australian populace. And we have devised the laws so that the onus is on platforms, not on parents or children. So, if parents and children want to find a workaround, I guess it’s the same as we have laws that say under-18s can’t drink. And yet, there will still be parents who give their kids alcohol as a workaround to that law. It doesn’t mean it’s not a good and important law. It doesn’t mean it’s not serving incredible public policy good, and I’m really proud of it.

RYAN: Would parents be in trouble? I mean, what would happen if they were found out to have helped their young kids onto social media?

WELLS: No, there’s no penalty for parents, either for enforcing or not enforcing the ban. The onus is on the platforms here. We think that social media platforms have a social responsibility. We think that they’ve neglected that social responsibility for many years now. And this is about the social media platforms putting in place the systems and processes that they need to deactivate under-16 accounts. So, at the end of the day, it shouldn’t matter whether a parent agrees or not. That platform, if it detects an under-16 account, will deactivate it.

RYAN: Do you think that it can be policed effectively so that it will actually work?

WELLS: As I was waiting to hop on with you, I heard Craig say that you’ve had someone call in with a 14-year-old who has passed the face ID verification. I’d sort of make the point these aren’t infallible. This is emerging technology, but that’s not the end of it. If you’ve passed it today, those platforms have to reassess these accounts over and over. So, if you pass it today, it doesn’t mean you’re going to pass it next week. And also, the fact that Face ID or that one particular form of age assurance technology is but one in a waterfall of methods that these platforms need to use. Think of all the data points they have. If they’ve got a photo of someone’s mother today, it doesn’t mean that they can’t see those people talking to other 14-year-olds about an under-15 netball carnival at a particular school that looks after Year 9 students. They have so many points of data on us, they are going to be able to work it out.

ZONCA: Anika Wells, really interesting how this is playing out. We’re hearing lots of calls from parents and teenagers this morning. We’ll take a few more of those on 1300-222-612 in a tick. Communications and Sport Minister Anika Wells, thanks for joining us this morning.

ANIKA WELLS: Have a good morning, everyone.