PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: For more on the Government’s mooted gambling reforms, I spoke to the Minister responsible, Communications Minister Anika Wells.

[Excerpt]

Minister, welcome to the program.

MINISTER FOR COMMUNICATIONS AND MINISTER FOR SPORT ANIKA WELLS: Good to be with you.

KARVELAS: The package is weaker than the one your predecessor, Michelle Rowland, proposed two years ago now. So, sports betting companies would call this a sort of partial win, right? Because it doesn’t go as far as was previously proposed. 

WELLS: Well, I don’t accept that whatsoever because only one deal has been landed and one deal has been announced. And the reforms that we’ve announced today are really substantial. As you heard the PM say at the NPC, they’re the most meaningful and significant reforms in online gambling harm since the last tranche of most meaningful and significant reforms in online gambling harm, which we did announce in the first term.

KARVELAS: Okay. You’re limiting the number of gambling ads to three an hour. So that means kids, presumably, who have the television on might see up to three an hour. You wouldn’t accept them seeing three an hour for tobacco, for instance, for smoking. Why is it okay for three gambling ads an hour?

WELLS: Well, a couple of nuances to that. That is outside of live sport broadcast, so not when you and your family are sitting down to watch the Pies. And there’s also the option of you watching on a streamer. So ABC iView, for example, SBS On Demand, if you watch AFL on 7plus, you will have the option to opt out of any gambling advertising if you watch through there. More than the majority of Australians now watch on smart TVs, which means that, no matter what time of day, you will never see them.

KARVELAS: The Peta Murphy Review wanted you to go a lot further. Was it disappointing for you that you couldn’t go any further?

WELLS: You know, a lot of people have invoked Peta’s name along the way – some with standing, some without; some with sincerity, some without. The reality is she isn’t here for us to hear from her today and that hurts me, and it hurts a lot of people in the Labor Government. Her widow, Rod, has spoken today, and he said that Peta would be very proud of the Labor progress we’ve made today, and that gives me great comfort.

KARVELAS: Okay. Well you’re right, she’s not here to answer but her actual report did go a lot further. It did call for a full ban and this is far cry from that. Is this just the beginning or is this the end?

WELLS: What I’d say to that is, because it has been three years since that report was handed down, and this does form the Government response to the You Win Some, You Lose More report, that’s true. It’s also capturing some of the things that have happened since then. So for example, the report into online Keno we only got a few months ago.

And while there are some parts of our response that fall short of what the recommendations of the report wanted, there are also some parts of our response that go further. So, radio for school drop-off and pick-up goes further. Online Keno goes further. So I think you have to see it as an entire package.

KARVELAS: Many advocates are disappointed. You know that. Tim Costello has spoken out, for instance – he’s one of the most well-known advocates for ending gambling like this. So what do you say to those critics who think that you’ve – well, and I’m kind of paraphrasing here – but you’ve squibbed it? That you haven’t had the strength to go further and actually deal with what is a really, really menacing problem in our community?

WELLS: I understand Tim Costello would like us to go a lot further. I also understand that wagering companies, sports broadcasters, would like us to have done an awful lot less. And some of them have already come out today talking about the substantial financial impact this is going to have.

What I need to do, and what the PM has tried to do, is strike a balance that Australian citizens can understand and get around. And what we understood from listening to people is that people really wanted that saturation and targeting of gambling advertising reduced, and they wanted the exposure of children to gambling advertising reduced. And that is what forms the heart of what we have handed down today.

KARVELAS: How can you actually implement this opt-out system for online gambling ads? Are we going to make Meta and Google and those platforms also have a button where they can opt out?

WELLS: So, here’s the thing. Full online ban for gambling advertising. Unless you can deliver a triple-lock system – you’ve got to verify who these people are, that they’re over 18 and that they haven’t opted out. So from 1 January, when these reforms begin, unless you have proven those things you will not be able to advertise gambling companies and gambling to Australians.

KARVELAS: Okay. So if you’re on Meta, they have to now implement this particular button?

WELLS: If they want to take money from gambling companies to advertise to Australians, they will need to have you logged in, over 18 and be satisfied that you’re over 18, and offer you the option to opt out.

KARVELAS: Okay. You know these companies are pretty difficult to deal with. Just this week, your other reforms for under-16s not going according to plan – they’re not adhering to the rules. What gives you confidence that they’re going to do this?

WELLS: Well, they have all said that they will abide by domestic law and that the eSafety Commissioner has said she expects swift and emphatic progress on that front that we’re talking about, the social media minimum age compliance on Tuesday. Companies who wish to transact business on Australian shores must do the right things by Australians. And I guess the other element to this that is coming is the Digital Duty of Care, which is my big piece of work in comms this year that we hope to legislate by the end of the year. That’s going to capture anyone who owns a website or an app to not have addictive features and functions. That captures gambling companies, that captures some of the practices that people wanted to see in the recs of this report, and I hope to hand that down this year, and it will be a game changer. But yeah, it is slogging it out day by day to make cultural change in this country, but it’s really important.

KARVELAS: Okay, on the regulator, that was a big proposal that there be a sort of regulation and a regulator that’s able to police this. Why not have one? Unless I’ve missed it, there’s not an announcement for a regulator.

WELLS: That was one of 31 recs in this report and we expect states and territories to do the right thing, as we have, as the Federal Government, now handed down our response and our best efforts to do the right thing. Absolutely, the Northern Territory government could and should do more to regulate the online gambling companies that operate out of the NT. Obviously at the ALP, we believe in Territory rights. We passed that bill in the first term so we’re not seeking to override that. But we expect now that we have delivered our response, it puts the onus on the states and territories to do more.

KARVELAS: Well, ok, but it’s hard to police, isn’t it, if you don’t have that national regulation?

WELLS: But we do have ACMA, and ACMA will be able to be the ones who fine companies doing the wrong thing, for example. And we’ve, in our reforms announced today, given ACMA more powers to do more, particularly on offshore gaming companies. At the moment, there’s a bit of a back and forth where ACMA has to give them the opportunity to remedy. We’re going to give ACMA more powers so they can just strike them out and the onus will be on the company to prove they’re doing the right thing.

KARVELAS: You mentioned ACMA. ACMA research from 2019 shows partial ads don’t work. In fact, they can make things worse. Aren’t you worried about that consequence?

WELLS: Well, that’s why we introduced the cap. So the cap of three applies outside of live sport coverage and applies outside of online and streamers. And like I said, a majority of Australians now use streamers to view their sport, so we’re talking about a smaller and smaller encapsulation here. But to address that, we’ve capped it at three. It was at eight. We’ve capped it at three.

KARVELAS: Okay. And I always wonder how you arrive at these numbers. Like, why three? How is three the magic number?

WELLS: This reminds me of when we had to talk about aged care, PK. Obviously, I have quite a lot of different parties in this space, all of whom have very firm and deeply held views. I have had to land in the middle. I have managed to land in the middle, and I do genuinely believe that we have struck a balance between Australians who see their right to like to have a punt and Australians who want to make sure that kids are best shielded from gambling advertising.

KARVELAS: The big question I always have with any big change is how will you measure its effectiveness? I mean, a lot of the reason we’ve been calling for reform is because there is so much harm being caused in the community. And, you know, it’s pretty heartbreaking. I know you’ve heard the stories. How will you measure whether this reduces harm tangibly? And if you can’t prove it has, will you be looking at that cap of three and reducing it?

WELLS: The measures that we are introducing today are the measures. This is a line in the sand. And as you heard the Prime Minister at the NPC say, at this point, a lot of people are looking for clarity so that they can make decisions about what’s coming down the line, particularly for broadcasts, changing news media landscape in this country. We use lots of different things to measure. Some of those bodies sit within the social services portfolio. We always look at data to try and make evidence-based decisions. We will, of course, use ACMA and other bodies to track how these things are working because we’re always looking at how we can do more. But I want to be very clear, the measures that we are announcing today are the measures.

KARVELAS: And January 1 next year is when it’ll start. Why do we have to wait that long?

WELLS: Because we need to get it through the Parliament. So we are currently drafting the exposure draft. Obviously, lots of people have a view on this and will want to weigh in. I would love to get this through the Parliament as quickly as possible. And obviously, it’s in everyone’s interest for us to do that, so it can start on 1 January.

KARVELAS: Have you briefed the opposition? Have you tried to bring people on side?

WELLS: Yes, I’ve had some briefings today with various members of parliament, and I’ll obviously continue to do that as you would expect through any normal legislative process.

KARVELAS: One other element that I think is interesting is taking this sort of commentary- taking gambling out of commentary, and that’s obviously been something that’s been heavily criticised. Will it also be a rule for influencers online? Because they’re very busy influencing us.

WELLS: Well, that’s right. And if they are advertising gambling, they will be subject to these laws. And I think another element of today which hasn’t been examined so much yet is making match fixing a criminal offence, adding it to the National Criminal Code. Because we’re trying to break the nexus between sport and wagering. Match fixing has been a real problem, particularly in leagues where people are coming to this country to play for a club, being beset by offshore gambling companies. So we’re doing a number of different things to address this broadly, and what I genuinely believe, is a substantial package.

KARVELAS: Minister, thanks for coming in.

WELLS: Pleasure.