HOST ALI MOORE: Well, the Government has released its guidelines for the social media platforms today on that ban, preventing under-16s from using social media. It doesn’t tell them exactly how to do it, but it does threaten them with hefty fines if they can’t prove that they’ve taken reasonable steps to remove accounts of under-16s. Anika Wells is the Federal Minister for Communications. Minister, welcome to Drive. 

MINISTER FOR COMMUNICATIONS ANIKA WELLS: Thanks for having me. 

MOORE: Broadly, what are the platforms required to do under these guidelines? 

WELLS: Today’s guidance makes really clear what isn’t okay for platforms to comply with the Australian law. What they must do is, they must detect and deactivate under-16 accounts. They must have measures in place to prevent under-16s from creating new accounts or from circumventing those processes. And they’ve got to have a really clear review mechanism that’s accessible to everybody in case they ask somebody who’s over 16, or they deactivate the account of someone who’s over 16 - there’s got to be an appeal right. 

MOORE: So essentially, it’s up to them, though, what sort of age verification tools they choose to use?

WELLS: It is, because there’s not a one size fits all approach here. But we’ve also made really clear what isn’t going to make the cut. They can’t rely on self-declaration of age. They can’t force people to hand over government ID. And they can’t retain more than the required information to demonstrate compliance. 

MOORE: So, particularly in that really hard-to-read age group, so the 14, 15, 16, those on the sort of cusp, what do you expect them to have to be prepared to hand over in order to be verified as, you know, above or below? 

WELLS: Well in essence, there’s three tranches of age assurance that platforms already use mostly to protect their own commercial interests - but there’s three different tranches. One, which is age verification, which is just literally scanning your government ID, like your driver’s licence. There’s age estimation, which is when they use, like, your face ID that you might already use on your iPhone. And then there’s age inference, which is where they use the data that you are voluntarily giving to the social media platform. And if they can see that you’re talking to 65-year-olds about caravanning, they’re going to be able to infer your age compared to if you are talking to 13-year-olds about KPop Demon Hunters. 

MOORE: Is there a potential issue here, though, around the protection of personal information? Because I did note today that you made the point, not everyone is going to have their age verified if you can prove that you’ve been there for a good 10, 15 years then you’re quite likely not 14. So, you must have some concerns about trying to keep the amount of information transferred to the platforms to a minimum. 

WELLS: Well that’s right. And again, I reiterate the point that Australians voluntarily given an awful lot of data up to these social media platforms as part of the way that we engage with social media. So, you know, they know where you live because you’re there eight hours every night to sleep at minimum. They know what things you’re buying on Marketplace, for example. That is data that you are voluntarily giving up. 

But, as the Australian Government, we obviously require all of our social media platforms, like any Australian company, to uphold our privacy laws in this country. And the way that we’ve applied that here is that we’ve said, you’ve got to minimise data and retain only the minimum amount of data to assure yourselves of people’s age, where there is a question as to whether this account belongs to someone who is under 16. 

MOORE: You’re listening to Anika Wells who’s the Federal Minister for Communications, and we’re talking about the guidelines for the social media platforms around the ban for under 16’s. Minister, if a social media platform doesn’t do the right thing, if it does have accounts that are being used by under 16s, how will you know? 

WELLS: Well, the eSafety Commissioner works really closely with these platforms day-in, day-out already because, as I think everybody is painfully aware, there’s an awful lot of online harm that is already being inflicted upon people through social media, and particularly through Australian kids. The whole purpose of these laws is to try and keep Australian kids safe online. So, they will continue to work with the eSafety Commission, who does have a lot of data and who does already have a great sense of percentages of users who are over and under 18 on these social media platforms. 

And, again, these social media platforms know so much about us and they use our data for their own commercial purposes and they target us with deadly precision with regards to advertising. So, I think it’s reasonable for Australian taxpayers to ask these social media platforms to use that same technology and those same profits to protect Australian users online. 

MOORE: But I mean the social media platforms have proven themselves in the past not necessarily to be a trusted entity so how do you regulate this? Is it a question of regular audits? What sort of resources are putting into policing it?

WELLS: Well, it is now a question of the law. This is now Australian law and any Australian company who wishes to practice or trade on our shores has to comply with the Australian law. If they don’t, if there are systemic breaches, these companies can be fined up to $50 million, which again we have reiterated today. And then I guess the second piece to this, which doesn’t come in 10 December, we’re still doing work on this, is that as part of our response to the Online Safety Act review, there will be a Digital Duty of Care. And like you say, lots of people would think or would expect that social media platforms would already hold a duty of care over the users that they have here in Australia but as there have been too many cases of online harm, we are going to implement a digital duty of care to make sure that they do.

MOORE: I understand all that, but I go back to the initial question, how will you know if they break the law? I mean, unless a parent complains to you or a teacher complains to you, how will you know?

WELLS: Well, that’s exactly what will happen. There’ll be an appeal process and there’ll be ways that people can report. But this is an obligation upon the companies. They have to detect and they have to deactivate under-16 accounts or they are in breach of Australian law and they will face the full force of the Australian law by way of penalty.

MOORE: And are there particular resources that are being put into a policing program as I said before, regular audits? Will it be something the eSafety watchdog will be doing on a regular basis?

WELLS: The eSafety Commissioner already is our regulator in this space. They are already a tough cop on the beat. We are giving them greater powers, I guess, through the social media minimum age laws which came into place at the end of last year and have had 12 months’ notice before they kick in on 10 December to make sure that social media platforms comply with the Australian law.

MOORE: So, just on that $50 million fine, Minister, is that for a first-time offence or is that the highest penalty? Is there going to be a sort of sliding scale?

WELLS: That is for a systemic breach. So, that is if the eSafety Commissioner takes the view that there has been a systemic breach or a determined position that the social media platform is not complying with Australian law.

MOORE: So, if a first-time offence, they might just get a slap over the wrist, do better?

WELLS: Look, that’s not really a hypothetical that I want to canvas. I want to set a very clear expectation - we’re less than 100 days out - that we expect all social media platforms, they’ve had the rules from July. They had a self-assessment tool released last week and they’ve got the regulatory guidance that we’ve published today to use. These are some of the best resourced companies in the world. This is technology that they already use themselves to protect their commercial interests. They should be using that technology to detect and deactivate under under-16 accounts online.

MOORE: Just a final question. There is now going to be a whole generation of kids who will go from zero to 100 in terms of access to social media when they turn 16. So how do we prepare them for that? How do you teach them about social media when it’s going to be completely and utterly absent from their lives until they turn 16?

WELLS: Whilst we hope it is completely and utterly absent from their own lives in the way that they will not have their own account, I think it is the case now that the internet, the harms of the internet, the policy question of online safety are now so important that we do need to raise awareness and there are already of people out there working in this space. We will have an awareness campaign about this that will start soon that will help, I hope, inform parents, teachers and kids about what this this is going to look like and what resources are available to them. But the pen is never down in this space. Whilst I’m really proud of our world-leading laws that will come into place on 10 December, this is going to be an iterative process and we’re going to keep working on it.

MOORE: Minister, thank you very much for joining Drive.

WELLS: Thanks, Ali.