PATRICIA KARVELAS: The Government, for its part, says it will work to restrict access to apps that use artificial intelligence to create nude images, and crack down on undetectable online stalking tools. Anika Wells is the Communications Minister, and she joins me in the studio. Welcome, Minister.

MINISTER FOR COMMUNICATIONS AND SPORT ANIKA WELLS: Great to see you.

KARVELAS: You’re moving to ban these deepfake apps used to create these nude images but, ultimately, tech companies are going to be the ones constructing that. Where is the evidence that they’ll actually do this?

WELLS: I would say that there is evidence that they want to be more collegiate and do more by a digital duty of care, because the Albanese Government has been so clear about what we expect in drawing some lines in the sand. This is another line in the sand today. But I think I’ve even seen movement, as the Minister for Comms, since when I started to now, from the decisions we have made and the leadership of the Prime Minister. 

I think everybody wants to know what is expected of them, and we are making that very clear. And in both the social media minimum age reforms and the digital duty of care, which we are advancing as part of our response to online safety, we have made that clear. And today is another step on that journey.

KARVELAS: Will you look at criminalising the possession of AI abuse apps?

WELLS: We should. We should do that. I think what we are saying today is, it is not enough what exists, the current laws are not fit for purpose. And while there is some good things in there - we have criminalised distribution, states and territories have done that too - there is no federal law that brings us all together. And there is no federal law to shift what I think is the most important thing, which is that the onus should be on the platforms to do more about their own technology. 

At the moment, the onus is on the victims to report, and that means that anyone is only doing anything after the harm has already occurred. Not good enough.

KARVELAS: We see some of these social media platforms, like Twitter is a big one, where a lot of this material proliferates now. Like, you can't actually avoid it, and it is being shared. This is the problem, isn't it? It is not just that the sort of app source then gets shared on apps like Twitter - and they have shown to be pretty recalcitrant – they’re not, like, overly interested in participating in your reforms.

WELLS: That's right. And that is why we have to shift the onus from criminal penalties for distribution to penalties for allowing them to be uploaded in the first place, or not blocking them when they are uploaded by malevolent actors. 

We’re looking at what the eSafety Commissioner can do either to just block or direct to block, and I think that forms part of a broader piece of work, which is about keeping Australians safe online and holding tech platforms to account. They come to a country, they engage in business here, they seek our data for commercial purposes. I think it is fair to ask them to use that data and that tech to keep Australians safe online.

KARVELAS: As technology evolves, it’s hard. I think Ed Husic described it to me really well as whack-a-mole, right, because there’s new stuff all the time. Isn't the legislation going to be left behind unless you have an AI act that deals with the more fundamental issues here?

WELLS: Well, I think the whack-a-mole nature of this is why, both when we’d talked about social media and minimum age a few weeks ago, and today when I’ve been talking about this, people would love a really prescriptive answer. But the fact is, though, I could give you a model today that might work, and in two months' time it might not longer work - that's how fast the tech is moving. But that’s also how fast the harm is going. The eSafety Commissioner has told us that, in the last 18 months, the number of people under 18 who have had deepfakes, sexual harm perpetrated upon them has doubled.

So, we need to draw a line in the sand. We need to change the culture around this. We need to put the onus back on tech platforms. There’ll be more work in that space with the digital duty of care coming down the line. But today is another step.

KARVELAS: In terms of legislative reform, because you just said criminalising possession of the apps is something you’ll put on the table, what sort of timeframe are we talking here?

WELLS: I said I would consider, because I saw that you talked about the International Centre for Missing and Exploited Children. I was at that roundtable this morning as well. These are people who have worked in this field, you know, for their career and who have been desperate for a government to come and step up in the space. And I went there to say, we are that Government.

But we need their advice, they’re the experts. And we need the advice of advocates like Sonia Ryan and Grace Tame who were there this morning, to tell us what they think would be best and for us to work with them.

KARVELAS: Did you speak with Grace Tame?

WELLS: Not one-on-one, we were around a table.

KARVELAS: Yeah, fair enough. Just on the news bargaining code, which is the other thing we’re waiting for. The media industry is waiting for the long anticipated discussion paper on this. Why is the Government dragging its feet on this?

WELLS: I wouldn't phrase it that way. I would say, and I think when I talk to broadcasters about this - and we do that regularly and we will again tonight.

KARVELAS: Who are you speaking to tonight?

WELLS: Well, Free TV is having a public showcased tonight. There is a number of complexities to this. There is a shifting space. Everybody wants to get this right. We absolutely do not resile from the fact this is very important. And we want to do this work. This it is an important principle. We want a free and diverse media in this country.

You’re talking about other things in this show – about social cohesion and things that rely upon a thriving democracy. A sustainable news media is an important part of that, so we’ll keep doing that work.

KARVELAS: Okay. And so, is there a timeline on the papers release?

WELLS: I couldn’t give you one.

KARVELAS: Can you make it happen soon? Because everyone’s waiting.

WELLS: I take that on board.

KARVELAS: But they are. There is a view, though, that there’s a go slow because of the Trump threat in relation to, you know, countries that create taxes around tech companies. Are people right to worry that, that's what the Government’s doing?

WELLS: I have had that view put to me. To be fair, that is something that, I think, is in the discourse of people in news media. And of course, they would like to see action as soon as possible, and I understand that. And I think we are working as fast as we can. 

Obviously, there’s two new ministers into the roles that previously been occupied and we’ve been trying to meet everybody. The consultation continues even this afternoon. And we want to get this work right, we want to get this work done as quickly as possible and that's the assurance I can give you.

KARVELAS: Okay. Just on the Freedom of Information charges. I know its Michelle Rowland's, Attorney-General, it’s her reform. But journalists, media companies, so it affects your portfolio, will have to pay higher rates for access to Freedom of Information. In a world where it's harder and harder to find the truth and get access to the truth, why do that?

WELLS: Well, I think it's because when we receive your, no doubt, extremely worthy and insightful FOI that helps further the public discourse in this country, it is one of thousands in a deluge that we are receiving. I've noticed, as the Minister for Communications, how much the volume has ticked up. 

And public servants, if they are spending a million hours a year - and that's the number - on FOIs, they're not doing work to advance news media bargaining, they're not doing work to advance online safety and holding tech platforms to account, they're doing this. And the vast majority we are seeing coming through are automated, frivolous, vexatious. And they're drowning out the worthy ones from an earnest citizen or a journalist. So, I think it's just that these laws aren't fit-for-purpose. They're from the 80s. 

KARVELAS: Maybe they had it right in the 80s. But if media companies want access to information, we should never make it harder. 

WELLS: Well, in the 80s, they didn't have the internet or things like AI, which are now being used to generate these FOI requests. And we certainly noticed that coming in. 

KARVELAS: So, you're saying that, like, there's AI kind of generation of lots of vexatious requests? 

WELLS: Or frivolous, yeah. And I want to see FOI. It's an important value. Labor tried to bring it in the first place with Gough Whitlam. It was held up in the Senate, ironically. It's always been an important principle for us. We're trying to make it modern and fit-for-purpose so that its important use can continue. 

KARVELAS: Okay. Gambling reform is your other thing. Lots of calls. I know you were friends with Peta Murphy. Her report, 31 unanimous recommendations still sitting there, unacted on. It's just going nowhere. I know you met with her husband as well who's really passionate about this. Will you advance it? 

WELLS: I just saw her husband again this morning, in fact. I am trying my best to advance it. I take very seriously my role in this. As the Minister for Communications, I'm in charge of some of the recommendations that we need to deliver. And I am, as I have said before – and I know people would love to hear more about this and I know people would love to see an answer sooner than I can give it to them – I am trying to plot a path through to get something done, and I take that work very seriously. 

KARVELAS: And you said you saw him this morning. He really wants this acted upon. I'm imagining he pressed that upon you and made that point. 

WELLS: I won't disclose private conversations but I will say, as testimony to how important this is to me, that the very first meeting I took as the new Minister for Communications was with Peta's widow, Rod Glover.

KARVELAS: Just on another issue. There's a man in the Lower House, Bob Katter is his name, who threatened a journalist last week. He's doubled down on that since. The Greens are trying to push for action on this. I haven't really heard much from the Government. Shouldn't there have been a motion, some action, in relation to Bob Katter who threatened a journalist doing his job, asking a pretty reasonable question? 

WELLS: So, that journalist is Josh Bavas, and I agree with you. At a time where the role of journalists in this country is both more important than ever and seemingly increasingly perilous, it isn't good enough. And he should apologise. And I think I said earlier today, he should account for his actions. 

As the Minister for Comms, one of the first things I did when I heard what had happened is ask, what happens here? And the answer is that when Members of Parliament do things outside the actual Parliament grounds, it is not therefore within our jurisdiction to act. So, I'm sure people will have views about what are other things we could do, but I did find it absolutely the wrong thing to happen. I felt for Josh Bavas. I asked what was possible. And I still think it is for Bob to account for. 

KARVELAS: Fair enough. Just finally, the neo-Nazi that interrupted Jacinta Allan's press conference has been charged … in relation to the Camp Sovereignty protest. Are you worried about the sort of brazenness of what we've seen, both at Camp Sovereignty and today at the press conference? 

WELLS: Yes. Yes, I am, because I have now been in Parliament for six years and I remember when there have been two different stabbings of UK MPs who have died, who have been murdered in office. So, when you see those examples overseas, of course. These kinds of instances of aggression are very alarming because I know that your viewers want ourselves as MPs to be as accountable as possible. And that requires us being out in public. That requires us being able to stand in a park and speak to the press, to our constituents. 

And when these things happen, that gives everybody pause. And I think it also gives our families pause. Because whilst I might think it's still important to do, my family don't want to see anything worse happen to us. So, I'm sure that's not at the top of their minds, but it is alarming because of the chilling effect it has on everybody else in the democracy. 

KARVELAS: Yeah, I think that's a really good point, actually. It's a very disturbing incident. Thank you so much for joining us. 

WELLS: Pleasure. 

ENDS.