GARY ADSHEAD: And it is that time. And right in front of me right now, the Federal Resources Minister, Madeleine King. Hello, Madeleine.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: How you going, Gary?

GARY ADSHEAD: Welcome into the studio.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Look, I brought you some honey from a beehive down in Shoalwater.

GARY ADSHEAD: I love honey.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: There you go.

GARY ADSHEAD: I'm a honey nut.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: There you go.

GARY ADSHEAD: Thank you very much for that.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: I'm sorry it's slim pickings, but we know good season.

GARY ADSHEAD. No, so, did you yourself?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Yeah, well, me and my husband. Yeah, I don't do it alone.

GARY ADSHEAD. So, you have some hives somewhere?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Two hives. Two very distant hives, in Shoalwater. And they pollinate our garden. My, my roses are going off.

GARY ADSHEAD. So, do you have a sense of where, what trees they go to, where they move between and all that sort of stuff?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Urban garden, right? Yeah. It's very light. It's not like Jarrah or anything.

GARY ADSHEAD: If you'd ask Helen, my wife, she'd tell you you've done absolutely brilliantly.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Oh, well, I love it. It's a calming thing to do, to be surrounded by 60,000 bees.

GARY ADSHEAD: Well, I mean, it's either that or go to Canberra and Parliament House. And, of course, that - that brings us to my next guest. It's good fun when there --

SENATOR DEAN SMITH: I know someone has to keep doing the work, someone has to keep doing the work.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: How did I know you'd say that?

GARY ADSHEAD: Dame Madeleine's a worker bee. What are you?

SENATOR DEAN SMITH: I'm just, I'm just looking around the studio, looking for my sort of gift-wrapped bit of present for Madeleine.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, I do, there is a jar here Dean.

GARY ADSHEAD: I can see it.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: I wouldn't have brought only one. I forgot. Sorry. I forgot. You're in estimates Dean. That's terrible of me.

SENATOR DEAN SMITH: I know. Well, thank you very much for the generous Christmas card I enjoyed reading that.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Thank you very much.

SENATOR DEAN SMITH: And I've enjoyed being on there with you this year.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: It has been a laugh.

GARY ADSHEAD: All right, well, we'll keep it going. We'll keep the laughs going and perhaps a few more serious questions. And you don't have to get me anything, Dean. It's fine.

SENATOR DEAN SMITH: The pressure … the pressure's on.

GARY ADSHEAD: Now, I do want to start with, I think, something that is going to be really interesting to watch for all of us, you know, whether you're parents or not parents, whether you're a teenager or not a teenager, the social media ban. I'm really interested in how this will play out. Madeleine, perhaps for you first. I mean, what sort of feedback are you getting from the community around this ban on under 16s?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Yeah, it's interesting. So, from parents and older people, very positive feedback, like, you know, an acknowledgement that it's not going to be perfect. And you would hear the reports today that there are new apps being, you know, to get around this ban. But we've always said all the way along during this, empowering parents to be able to say to their children, no, we're not going to do this because it's against the law. And you've heard the comparisons to underage drinking, which of course is illegal, but we know it happens and it's around education. So, from adults, they're enthusiastic. But then I had a rare visit from some school kids from Baldivis Senior College down in secondary college, down in my electorate and, and they're actually over the age of the band and one of them was, although a few of them actually asking me about it and they said, oh, they, they're, they're not supportive. They, they see the, what, what the people coming for, the younger people behind them will miss out on. But then when you have a chat about the pressures on what you wear, how you look like, you know that they understand that. But of course, they're closer to it in age, so they have a different perspective and I understand that.

GARY ADSHEAD: Are you on a unity ticket on this Liberal Senator?

SENATOR DEAN SMITH: Well, we're certainly on a unity ticket in wanting to make sure that young people can, you know, participate, you know, safely in the community and participate safely with, you know, digital technology. There's absolutely no question about that. And we want, you know, parents to, to feel that they are supported as they, you know, assist their children and young people navigate social media. Just last night in the Senate estimates, I sat across from the eSafety Commissioner, we talked about the implementation. It's very, very interesting to see, as Madeleine has said, some of the behaviors of young people that have been reported today in terms of trying to get around the social media ban. Look, this is a big experiment. It'll be very interesting to understand more clearly what are the metrics for success? How are we actually going to measure the success of this? And of course, it is going to be a work in progress. It is going to be a work in progress. We've got the 10th of December deadline just a week away. It'll be interesting to like, interesting to see how young people respond to that. So, it's a work in progress. It is a unity ticket. We are interested in making sure that young people in our country are safe, you know, social media. I think has a lot of benefits. But the dangers are very, very well known, they're well documented and unfortunately, some, some young people have lost their lives as a result of this. So, fingers crossed and we'll wait to see.

GARY ADSHEAD: Just, just both of you though, is it, is it some kind of admission that when, I mean, of course it all started, it was all a phenomenon and everyone jumped on it, you know, young, old, whatever, Facebook and so on. Right. But is it an admission that the tech companies became too big to police? You know that we have to meet certain standards here in terms of how I broadcast television, publishing, et cetera. These guys were out on their own. And it's kind of an admission that we can't beat them. So, we just have to shut people off. Do you think, Dean?

SENATOR DEAN SMITH: Well, I think what, I think what is really. And this sort of dawned on me last night asking questions of the eSafety Commissioner. We know that we have to confront the realities of AI. We know that there will be significant benefits that come from AI, but we also know that there are significant risks. So, I think part of the conversation around AI is what are the lessons that we learned from the introduction of social media? Did we respond to those things too quickly? Should we be more agile and more front footed in terms of protecting people, but also making sure that we get the economy wide benefit? I think the answer to that is how do we, how do, how do we focus now on, on the AI opportunities and challenges?

GARY ADSHEAD: True, isn't it, Madeleine? Because you know, we've got AI. We keep talking about AI, AI. We might get to a point, Madeleine, where we've gone, we should have been policing that harder given that the whole idea of artificial intelligence, I'm sorry, is to replace our own.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, I don't know about that -

GAY ADSHEAD: It is.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: The thing is, I remember when the internet first started. That's how old I am. I was at university and I saw a web browser in the guild president's office. So, Natalie Curling was her name, the president. And I just remember thinking, far out, that is wild. Like, look at that. You can just ask it stuff, and it will find you an answer. But I wasn't a digital native like the young people are today. And so, you know, you grow up in a different mode of learning and critical thinking and looking at your sources. And I think that's what's going to be really important for young people right now and into the future is learning about that critical thinking of the things they're looking at and learning about that at schools because the internet has been, as annoying as it can be sometimes, it's also been a tremendous tool for us all. It's also hilarious. I mean there's funny stuff. I mean, how will we learn about that Faberge egg story for the Internet?

GARY ADSHEAD: Yeah, fair point.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: And we're all laughing at that.

GARY ADSHEAD: The Kiwi that swallowed an egg and we're still waiting for that to come out.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: And for AI I mean, we make some jokes in my office about Skynet and so forth, but at the same time the potential gains we can make are pretty extraordinary. But I agree with Dean. We've always got to keep a watchful eye. And as regulators and lawmakers, you can go too far. But also, if you lay off completely, people are harmed. And that's the big responsibility, I suppose, of being a Senator and a member as well.

GARY ADSHEAD: Can, can I just ask you both though, and I'm sure Dean will want to jump in on this, but Anika Wells has copped it a bit in terms of she's the Minister overseeing the social media ban and went to the UN to sort of talk to people about what they're doing. And the bill was quite expensive, around $100,000 plus dollars for this trip. And this is how she dealt with it at The National Press Club today.

MINISTER ANIKA WELLS: That trip was undertaken as the Minister for Communications. And I think, and I would think the people who were there for that UN event, who join us in this room today would agree with me that it was incredibly important. That event fueled momentum in this space. You have seen a number of different jurisdictions come out from that moment to as recently as last week to announce that they are going to do exactly what Australia is doing. They are going to mimic Australia in this space. It's important and I'll continue to be transparent about what that cost, what it looks like, what we did in the usual way.

SPEAKER: You don't think that was expensive for airfares over $94,000?

MINISTER ANIKA WELLS: I've answered your question.

GARY ADSHEAD: Dean Smith. Why would this trip be singled out as opposed to, I mean politicians have to travel all the time.

SENATOR DEAN SMITH: $190,000 for a three-day summit at the United Nations just days after the Optus triple zero outage issue was breaking. This is, I think it's insensitive to the cost-of-living pressures that Australians are under. It's coming at exactly the wrong time because we should be talking about, you know, getting young people ready for the social media ban and what that means. $190,000 for three at the United Nations. I think it does not pass the pub test. It's insensitive to cost of living pressures. And it will be very, very interesting to hear Minister Wells talk about, you know, why $34,000 in airfares, $100,000 worth of flights for herself and two other people, $25,000 in accommodation and transport. I think it's, it's a very, very bad start for what is a relatively new Minister Anika Wells.

GARY ADSHEAD: Does it sound excessive to you, Madeleine? I mean you would obviously have a Federal Resources Minister, you would be travelling as often as you need to.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: I mean my, my travel expenditure is always at the top of the list in reports every year because I travel across the continent. I've got an app on my phone. I've travelled nearly three times around the world for the trips I've had to do. Representing the government in Washington, Toronto, but then Canberra. So, there is a lot of air miles, and it is expensive, there's no doubt about it. And no one likes any Member of Parliament or Senator spending any money whatsoever on anything at all. And I get that. And you know, the cost-of-living issues among, in the community is very difficult. But I would say in relation to Minister Wells work at the UN and the other Ministers that were there as well, we have to be in the room, Australia has to be in the room at these events. New York is a big city. It was the UN General Assembly. You can imagine what's going on in terms of vacancy rates and so forth. But it is really important and in the national interest over any government. Doesn't matter who is on the Treasury benches is that you have Ministers representing this country at the highest levels and at the UN is the highest level. So, it was important work. And Annika's right, it's world leading reform and after her appearance more world leaders know about it and are following our lead and working with us on it.

GARY ADSHEAD: Does that -

SENATOR DEAN SMITH: But Madeleine. But Madeleine, by your own admission, there were other Ministers there. Eyebrows were raised when news broke that Anika Wells had left Australia at the time of the triple-zero outage matter to go to the United Nations. $190,000 for a three-day summit. That, that is, that is by any measure its --

GARY ADSHEAD: All right, I'm going to park that one there for a minute because look, this is the last time we'll do this. And so, I thought it might be opportune to have a bit of a year in review. Dean Smith, how's your year been, mate?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: After you, Dean.

GARY ADSHEAD: How's it been?

SENATOR DEAN SMITH: I was thinking, I was thinking, Gary, what's the question I'm going to get? You know, what's been the highlight of the year? And I landed, I landed on Wednesdays at … Wednesdays at 4:30 in the afternoon, joining you and Madeleine in the ABC Studios with Madeleine on a few occasions, you know, having opportunity to put my best foot forward, you know, turning up, making the case. I've greatly enjoyed it. You know, Josh and Lucy, as part of your team, have always been very generous and polite to me and my team. It's been a real highlight, I think, having an opportunity to come onto the ABC, you know, our voice, your voice is very, very important. You know, Madeleine would agree that, you know, having an opportunity as parliamentarians to, you know, take the calls, make the case, you know. It's not been an easy year, Gary. I'll absolutely admit that.

GARY ADSHEAD: Glad you said that.

SENATOR DEAN SMITH: Turning up is important. Turning up is important. And I'm very, very grateful for the invitation that you and the ABC extended to me.

GARY ADSHEAD: And of course, and that invitation, I'm sure, will be extended into next year. Of course, that decision's out of my hands, but if I had my way, it would. I just thought I'd say that just in terms of leadership. How settled are we on leadership of the Liberal Party, Dean?

SENATOR DEAN SMITH: Very settled.

GARY ADSHEAD: Thank you. Two words. I like that when a politician gives you a short answer, it's just great.

SENATOR DEAN SMITH: The shortest answers are the safest answers I've discovered.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: I couldn't even talk over you then.

GARY ADSHEAD: No, no, Madeleine was more than happy. Madeleine, from your point of view, I mean, the PM just got married, so he's pretty happy at the moment. Of course, we saw what the election result did for the Labor Party. Are you getting a sense that all of that is going to continue into the next election in 2028, that things are just going gangbusters?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, you know, you don't get to a good result that we had this year in the election without a lot of hard work. And that's what ministers and members and candidates and senators all put in. And it's fair to say it's been a very good year for us. But it doesn't happen by luck. It's not like, you know, we rock up an election campaign and suddenly everything falls your way. You have to have put in the hard work and the, the policy work. Certainly, in my portfolio, our success this year with the, my second visit to the White House and the second president …

GARY ADSHEAD: What did happen? What did happen inside that office? Was it the Oval Office?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: The US-Australia Critical Minerals Framework, which is, you know …

GARY ADSHEAD: Yeah, but what happened apart from that? I mean, come on.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: We had a good old look around. It's quite a room when you go.

GARY ADSHEAD: Was that the first time you'd been into the White House or not?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: No, the second time, but the first time into the Oval Office.

SENATOR DEAN SMITH: Did you souvenir anything, Madeleine?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: You bet I did …no

SENATOR DEAN SMITH: Oh, what did you souvenir ? That's my present.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: No, I was, we were given -

GARY ADSHEAD: A Faberge egg.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: You know those challenge coins, Dean, that you often get from the ADF? The President has them as well, so we each got one of them, which was a real thrill. Yeah, but anyway, my point, you only get to go to do those things if you put in the hard policy work. Well, in government, but you've got to put in the work to have the policy that makes countries like the US want to deal with you and come to the agreement that we did with the Critical Minerals Framework. But that's just one thing.

GARY ADSHEAD: Just because we just out of interest, Dean, I'll get your reaction and then Madeleine's as well. We saw what happened at the last federal election, ok. So, it was pretty overwhelming and there's soul searching still going on with the Libs and the Opposition in terms of that review. Of course, bits and pieces keep popping out. But, what seems, for me as an observer, what seems to have happened is that you've drawn a line even deeper into the sand now with the net-zero walk away and some other issues in terms of immigration and so on that might be coming up as well. Did that surprise you that you would go down that path after the election loss? Dean Smith.

SENATOR DEAN SMITH: Good question. I'm someone who's very, very comfortable with the idea that after any election, particularly a loss and particularly a loss of the scale that we had, it's very, very necessary to do, you know, do some soul searching. You know, the report or the review into the federal election campaign will come out in coming weeks. I'm someone who's very, very comfortable with the idea that you've got to have your big debates early.  You do need to work out where your broad policy positions are going to line up. Now I understand Gary completely that many people will not understand our net-zero position in the context of today. In the context of today. But I'm very, very confident. I think I've said it to you before on the show that I believe that in 12 months’ time, 18 months’ time, energy security issues and electricity costs will be so top of mind for Australians that The Coalition's energy policy will make much more sense and I'm very, very confident it'll attract a lot of attention and a lot of support in the community. Now, I totally agree, totally understand that people may not think that that is the case for today. This is a policy for 12 to 18 months and for the next election. And I do think that factors will align in our favor.

GARY ADSHEAD: Alright, Madeleine. I mean, sort of the line that's been drawn though, in terms of going to an election campaign. I know it's 2028, but it again makes it, you know, interesting, doesn't it, that there's going to be some big differences?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Yeah, I guess so. But I find it interesting, to say the least, that you're trying to. How do you sell a policy that only will make sense in 18 months? I find that difficult. Dean. I don't know how you. You prosecute that?

SENATOR DEAN SMITH: No, Madison. That's my niece. Yep. Hello, Madison. I'm sure she's not listening, but Madeleine.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: What are you saying there?

SENATOR DEAN SMITH: She's probably getting ready for the social media ban. In all seriousness, we know the electricity cost matter is rising and rising in terms of the level of consciousness and awareness that people have that, and I think that people cost of living issues more generally after Christmas and after the summer period will be very, very top of mind. So, I'm confident that when we get out there, as we've been communicating the energy and emissions reduction policy, more and more people start to say this makes sense.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: I would just quote what Basil said.

GARY ADSHEAD: You know what Basil said?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Only a mug would … Before we go, can I say Happy Birthday to the Country Hour?

GARY ADSHEAD: Yeah, that'd be fantastic.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: It's its 80th year and what it is the longest running radio show in the world according to the Guinness Book of records. The ABC's Country Hour.

GARY ADSHEAD: It's 80 years old today. Where's the cake?

SENATOR DEAN SMITH: Or yesterday.

GARY ADSHEAD: Where's the champagne? That's what I want to know. I mean, it's. What's in it for you is what I always ask. Now, by the way, I've got Basil on at 5.20. I wonder if he paid that money to Oz Harvest.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Oh, I know I paid.

GARY ADSHEAD: You paid yours. And he doubled yours. He made a point of trying to double it. So, I wonder. I'll ask him first question.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: I feel cheap now.

GARY ADSHEAD: Hey, guys. Hey. Just on behalf of myself and the team here, thank you very much for making it, you know, both a very fruitful year in terms of the information that we glean and the conversations that we have.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, thanks, Gary. It's been wonderful.

SENATOR DEAN SMITH: Thank you very much, Gary.

GARY ADSHEAD: All right, mate, we'll see you soon. Merry Christmas to you both.

SENATOR DEAN SMITH: Best wishes. Merry Christmas.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Merry Christmas.