GARY ADSHEAD: And joining us from Canberra right now, Madeleine King, Labor MP and, of course, Federal Minister for Resources. Hello, Madeleine. 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Hi, how are you, Gary? You had that big news earlier this week. 

GARY ADSHEAD: I did, and of course --

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: We're very sad about it over here. 

GARY ADSHEAD: Yeah, no, just a decision. Sometimes you make things, decisions for personal reasons, you know, time to, time to wind down a little bit, not too much, but - and of course, that's Senator Dean Smith I can hear. Are you alright?

DEAN SMITH: Good to be with you, Gary, just as well you weren't in Canberra this week. We would have put you at Senate Estimates --

GARY ADSHEAD: I was going to say --

DEAN SMITH: -- and interrogated --

GARY ADSHEAD: I was going to say --

DEAN SMITH: -- interrogated you for your reasoning.

GARY ADSHEAD: That's right. You could have done, I suppose, because I worked for the ABC. Taxpayers dollars and all that, so.

DEAN SMITH: Great to be with you.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Best [indistinct] you'll ever spend. 

GARY ADSHEAD: Now, listen, are you all right, Dean? Are you one of those people that revels in this whole sort of, you know, Senate Estimates hearings and, you know, do you use terms like "Get off your arse and do something" like Bridget McKenzie did yesterday? 

DEAN SMITH: I think the answer to that would be no. I think I've reflected before on the show that I'm a bit of a Senate nerd. I think, you know, the Senate's a fantastic institution. I enjoy the, the opportunities it gives you to interrogate the government. You know, I've had an opportunity the last few days to sort of, you know, put the, you know, put the heat on the government over Optus, put the heat over the government over lack of transparency and accountability in regards to what we call the Incoming Government Brief that was given to Minister Chris Bowen. So, it's an exhausting day. It goes for very, very long and into the night. But, yeah, I do have to admit it's, it's part of the process I enjoy. Yeah, I get stuck into it.

GARY ADSHEAD: Well, there is a few issues that we will come to in a second, but how about --

DEAN SMITH: There is. It's been a very productive Senate Estimates week, and we've only had two days of it. We've only had two days.

GARY ADSHEAD: But how about we start with this? Is the Liberal Party leaking against each other or one another?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: What do you mean? It has been for a long, long time. 

GARY ADSHEAD: Dean?

DEAN SMITH: Wasn't quite the Andrew Hastie question I was expecting or prepared for, Gary. But look, I do think that the next few years of Opposition will go very, very quickly. I have grown up, you know, in the Liberal Party, when we're lucky enough to have a very, very strong and convicted politician like John Howard. He would always say, "You can't fatten the pig on market day". I think preparing the Opposition for the next election, hopefully preparing itself to be the next government, that began, you know, the weekend after the last federal election. We'll get to a point very, very quickly where time will have run out. I'm someone who's very, very committed to making sure that we use every opportunity that we're given over the next few years to make the case against the government at the right time, present our alternative policies and ideas to the electorate and hopefully significantly improve our position. A strong --

GARY ADSHEAD: But you've got to get on the same page. You've got to get on the same page, don't you?

DEAN SMITH: A strong Opposition is very, very important to the success of democracy in our country. And I do think it's a very, very important time for some discipline across the Opposition, most definitely.

GARY ADSHEAD: So, what's. You said that's not the Andrew Hastie question you expected, but let me --

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: And he didn't answer your question. 

GARY ADSHEAD: No, he didn't. But let me put it this way. Has that really hurt the Liberal Party so much that people would leak confidential submissions on behalf of Peter Dutton to get some sort of campaign against Andrew Hastie?

DEAN SMITH: I, look, I don't know about that. I don't know about that. I'm not close enough to the review process. I've certainly shared my views about the election campaign and our election campaign performance with the reviewers. But I'd just say this about Andrew, who is someone that I know very, very well. He's an honourable person. He's a man and a parliamentarian of great conviction. Andrew is the sort of person that will be able to make a very solid contribution to the Coalition in Opposition, no matter what position he has. I think there are some important lessons that Andrew can teach us about performing much better in individual electorates. It's worth noting that Andrew, who's got an adjoining electorate to Madeleine, Andrew did well at the election. He improved his vote. So, you know, I'm a supporter of Andrew and I think he'll always have a strong contribution to make in the Liberal Party.

GARY ADSHEAD: This makes life pretty easy for your government, doesn't it, Minister? Because while the Libs are tearing each other apart, still after that election loss, it's just a walk in the park, isn't it?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, I wouldn't say that, Gary. We're accountable to the Australian people and, you know, they, they make decisions and provide us with feedback as well. But obviously having an Opposition in such disarray makes some parts of government a bit simpler. We see the Liberals totally focused on themselves and I don't see that changing anytime soon. But we're focused on the Australian people and acting in their best interests and making sure we deal with all the urgent matters of government as they arise, but also that really important future thinking and planning about how we do, you know, develop methodically the policies that are better for the Australian people right now. Like everyone, we're focused on addressing cost-of-living issues. That's the most important thing for Western Australians and Australians more broadly at the moment. And we're focused on that through reducing HECS debts and making sure PBS medicines are affordable and available for everyone, and that's what we'll continue to do. But if I might just comment on Andrew, I agree with Dean, he's a --

DEAN SMITH: That's becoming a habit, Madeleine.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: I'm sorry, Dean. He, uh, a good --

DEAN SMITH: You're ruining my reputation.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: A good politician, but I might add --

GARY ADSHEAD: You're ruining the segment, let alone his reputation.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: You know, he ran quite an aggressive scare campaign down in the southern suburbs, and that's, you know, how he changed the dynamics down there. And I've no doubt other members of the Liberal Party will learn from that and run their own scare campaigns as soon as they can. But what he also did is disagree with everything the [indistinct] leadership - he wasn't, he was absent to his own admission and through the structures of the party and the leadership of the time, and that gave him the opportunity to concentrate on his seat and that delivered for him.

GARY ADSHEAD: Ok, now, hey, just on something that I know, Dean, you would have been across through Estimates in relation to the Optus outage. Madeleine, do you think, in all - I know that sort of, you know, Anika Wells is talking very tough about how Optus have let Australia down and so on and so forth. It's all very tough. But look, in 2024, there was a report in March that said it needs to be a triple-zero custodian and it was not legislated. Now it's going to be. Has it taken three people to die because of another triple-zero outage and Optus failing to put this to law?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Yeah. I do want to be clear. Optus is responsible for the triple-zero outage and they will be held to account. We are focused on getting to the bottom of what went wrong and making sure it never happens again. This is a tragic circumstance. It really, it really is. And we know telecommunications have changed. We don't have the landlines we used to all have and that's, that's no excuse. Don't, I don't want to be misunderstood here, but I do want to be clear that Optus is responsible for these outages. The triple-zero custodian was enacted earlier this year. We're strengthening the role of the custodian, and that's an important thing to do, and we'll keep our focus on making sure that this never happens again and we'll make sure all the telcos focus on making it never happen again.

GARY ADSHEAD: So, where do you see blame lying here, Dean Smith? Where do you see it at the moment? And from what you've learnt through the Estimates, and we heard that ridiculous scenario of emails being sent to the wrong address warning people of the, warning the government of the triple-zero outage, for example.

DEAN SMITH: Well, I was at the table this morning, Gary, prosecuting the case for greater transparency and accountability around the Optus issue. Absolutely, this is catastrophic. People should have high level of confidence in the triple-O emergency service. It's particularly important for states like Western Australia, where we have, you know, regional communities, you know, great distances between our, between our small towns and of course, in this particular case, you know, West Australians have lost their life. So, this is absolute catastrophic, and Optus must be held accountable. But Minister Anika Wells is the Minister who sits above the regulators, and what was revealed today was regulatory failure, poor accountability, confusion about who knew what when, and that's just not good enough. So, when the Senate returns formally in October, I'll be supporting a Senate inquiry into this matter. I bring a level of, you know, experience to telecommunications matters, having been the chair of the Telecommunications Backbench Policy Committee when Malcolm Turnbull was Prime Minister. Many years ago, many years ago I was a senior executive at Optus, so have a level of familiarity about Singtel ownership issues, the regulatory function, et cetera. But it's just not right to, it is just not right, I think, and this is where I think the inquiry will ultimately end or get to, is that I think we've got a coupling of issues here. One is terrible failure on Optus' part at what looks like every level of the organisation, but also very, very significant regulatory failure. And the point is that Minister Anika Wells is the responsible Minister, and at a critical, at a critical time, fled to New York for meetings at the United Nations.

GARY ADSHEAD: I'm talking to Senator Dean Smith and Labor Resources Minister Madeleine King at 16 past 4. I'll ask you both this question then. Given what you just said, Dean Smith, and I don't know what Madeleine thinks, but should Optus have a telecommunications licence?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Sorry, is that for me, Gary?

GARY ADSHEAD: Well, if you want to go first with it.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Oh, sure. Pardon me. Well --

GARY ADSHEAD: I mean, it's kind of, it's getting to a point now, given 2023 and now this, should they have a licence?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, I wouldn't want to disrupt the, you know, carriage system of Optus to all the people that are using it right now.

GARY ADSHEAD: They'll switch.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, that kind of action is, as you can imagine, highly disruptive to many people's lives. If there are investigations into that exact question, well, they will continue, there's no doubt about that.

GARY ADSHEAD: Are they fit?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, I'm not the one in the position to make that decision. I don't think anyone on the line here is today. ACMA are carrying out their - that's the regulator - the independent, the investigation of this incident. And if other matters arise, there's no doubt this will be taken further. But I'm certainly not going to, you know, make any kind of decision on air to the ABC. As good as, you know, the broadcaster is, it's just not appropriate.

GARY ADSHEAD: Dean Smith, are they fit to hold a licence right now?

DEAN SMITH: We want - we want Optus to be the very, very best it can be for a whole variety of reasons. They're a significant employer in our country. They provide important competition to Telstra. They're a significant, you know, organisation. We want them to be the very, very best they can be. There are some serious questions. This looks like systemic failure over a number of issues over a period of time. More than that, I've only been in the Senate estimates for, you know, three quarters of the day. I think I'll reserve my final judgement to the outcomes of what are a variety of reviews that are now being undertaken and a Senate review that I hope to participate on. And I would just say, I'd just say to Madeleine and to those Labor senators from Western Australia, I hope that they will support any motion in the Senate to establish a Senate inquiry, because this is a particularly important issue for Western Australians.

GARY ADSHEAD: Well, what I would say is that given their own admissions that the steps that they are supposed to go through when they're doing a network update that might interfere with triple-zero, they didn't follow, and they've admitted that. They've said that they never followed step two, which is to make sure that the triple-zero calls would be pushed to a new network, another network. That's, it's stock standard. But they didn't even do that.

DEAN SMITH: But I would add --

GARY ADSHEAD: I'm asking again, how are they fit to have a licence?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: It's an appalling [indistinct].

DEAN SMITH: I would add to that, I would add to that, Gary, that in evidence at the Senate Estimates today by ACMA, which is the primary regulator, the Australian Communications and Media Authority, it also appears, and I'm [indistinct] proven wrong through the inquiry process, but it appears through the evidence that I was witness to today, there seems to have been significant regulatory failure as well.

GARY ADSHEAD: Alright, but anyway, we'll wait and see for the outcome of that. Madeleine King, I know that you've probably received an email from a gentleman called Mark Corrigan who I had on the program yesterday. He was the person that sort of came to us with information some weeks back about a Russian oil tanker. Sorry, an oil tanker carrying Russian oil heading to Kwinana. It's happening again, despite the Federal Government's, you know, latest attempt to try and thwart this loophole that seems to happen in terms of Russian oil. Is there anything you can do about it.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Uh, well, we are doing what we can, and it is difficult because of the nature of the commodity. And I did receive that email, I think, yesterday afternoon. You know, measures you've already taken have seen Russian energy products falling from $80 million to zero since Russia's invasion. And just a couple of weeks ago or last month, the Foreign Minister announced, we're lowering the oil price cap, and that's alongside the European Union, the United Kingdom, Canada, New Zealand and Japan. And the intent of that is to drive down the market value of Russian crude oil. But the problem we have here in the West Coast, Gary, is, you know, we lost our ability to refine crude oil into petroleum when, you know, and that was under the former government, stood by and did nothing to keep the BP refinery working. And what that means is there are, there are less options for Western Australia's refined petroleum. So, whilst, you know, we have to ensure that we don't support the Russian war effort and we're doing all we can to make sure that doesn't happen, and right now we're engaging with industry and evaluating options to put further pressure on Russia's oil revenues. But when you can't refine crude oil and make it into petroleum, you have less choices. And what we also must be mindful of is we don't want to have there being no fuel in Western Australia. So, these things have to balance up. We are very focused on making sure our support of Ukraine's effort is rock solid through, whether it be the Bushmaster contribution we've made, whether it be all the other things we've done to be the largest non-NATO supporter of Ukraine, and we'll continue to do that.

GARY ADSHEAD: So, the EU sanctions I know that are in place in relation to the Indian refineries, where this gets washed, if you want to call it that, I mean, theirs seem to be working. I mean, ships are being turned around by, like BP, for example. Would you speak to them and say what do you know about this particular tanker that's coming in and where it's sourced its oil? Would you do that as a Resources Minister, speak to the head of BP?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, I'm not just yet, but I do know that DFAT are investigating the matter. So, sorry, that's Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, so, you know, that's appropriate at this stage. So, you know, I'll let that take its course, but I won't wait too long. Rest assured that these need to be addressed quickly. You know, we - whilst the EU has banned these products, they're still, it's really hard to track the product once it's been refined, because it moves around the world. And I totally accept --

GARY ADSHEAD: Hmm, deliberately.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Yeah, I totally accept the, the concerns people have. I share these concerns, but we are constantly reviewing our measures against Russia, and we want to look to what more we could do. We want to starve Russia of oil profits just like everybody else does, I can assure the listeners.

DEAN SMITH: Gary, it is true --

GARY ADSHEAD: Dean - yep --

DEAN SMITH: It is true that the Australian Government and Penny Wong have, you know, increased the sanction regime against, against Russia in regards to the crude oil matter. And in September, you know, they sanctioned 95 what they call Russian shadow fleet vessels. But I think the government's approach misses point. And later this week, there'll be an opportunity for me to inquire with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and the Department of Defence with Senator Wong at the table, why is it that Australia is not actually doing what the Europeans are doing, and that is sanctioning the refinery itself? Now, there could be a good or very interesting reason for this. It's not immediately obvious to me, because that is what some other nations have chosen to do. It's important to remember that the illegal and moral - immoral invasion of Ukraine continues and it gets more severe week by week. We've had reports now that the North Koreans are supporting the Russians in their effort with the invasion. So, and it's interesting that you have chosen to raise this issue consistently over a number of months now. I suspect the answer is that the government sanction regime is hitting the wrong target.

GARY ADSHEAD: Well, okay. On that, then, has that been considered within government at all? The sanctioning of the refineries like the U.S. have now come out and done in terms of the tariffs and other methods they put in place to try and stop it. And you've heard the President of the U.S. say that he's disappointed with other countries not taking stronger steps to stop this flow of Russian oil. Madeleine?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, I'm not sure if Dean's suggesting we sanction BP refinery, or do you mean in India --

DEAN SMITH: No, no, no, the refineries in India.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Yeah. Sorry, pardon me. I didn't --

DEAN SMITH: That's right, yep.

GARY ADSHEAD: That's what other countries have done.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Yeah.

DEAN SMITH: That's right.

GARY ADSHEAD: Including --

DEAN SMITH: That's what the Europeans have done.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Yeah, well, you know, we know the Europeans, they've sanctioned, but they still have no guidelines on how they're, they're tracing or tracking these products. So, it is - it's not - it, it's a great intent and I do support what the EU are doing, but carrying out the practicalities is another matter. And we're an island continent with fewer and fewer options around having fuel for our farming industry, for our mining industry, for everybody's Toyotas and Mitsubishis. You know, we, we have less and less options. So, when we, you know, introduce sanctions, we also need to be careful we don't, you know, limit our own supplies. But, I mean, I can only --

DEAN SMITH: And I think --

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: -- I don't want to repeat myself, but I have to --

DEAN SMITH: I think that's - I think Madeline's point about energy security is important. It has been important for a long time. It's growing in its level of significance. You know, today I had an opportunity with Sussan Ley to meet the Prime Minister of Singapore and some of his senior ministers. Energy security is top of mind for Australia. It's top of mind for our neighbours. So, you know, let's hope there might just be a little bit more information on the public record this week.

GARY ADSHEAD: Did you ask him about Optus? Seeing as his government's the biggest shareholder?

DEAN SMITH: I don't want to go into too much detail, but it would be. I don't want to go into too much detail. I'm sure you'll respect that, Gary.

GARY ADSHEAD: All right. And I better let you get back to Senate Estimates. I'm sure there's more happening.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: He can't wait.

GARY ADSHEAD: Madeleine King.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: How long does it go till Dean? Do you have a slow cooker in your office?

DEAN SMITH: It goes to 11 - it goes to 11 o'clock every night.

GARY ADSHEAD: Wow.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Gary, you wouldn't believe. It's like a cult over here [indistinct] Senate Estimates. They all cook at their little office kitchens. It's really, it's quite a thing, I can tell you.

GARY ADSHEAD: So, what, the food doesn't just come in? The sandwiches, I would've thought --

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: I know. Could you believe it?

DEAN SMITH: That was abandoned a long time ago. That's right, a long time ago.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: I think that's unfair, though, because they work very hard, the Senators. I mean, I shouldn't say that publicly, but --

DEAN SMITH: And the coffee is granulated as well, I might add, it's --

GARY ADSHEAD: Goodness gracious!

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: I know.

DEAN SMITH: It's no espresso.

GARY ADSHEAD: My heart's a flutter.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: It's inhumane.

DEAN SMITH: There's no espresso machine at the back of the room. Nothing like that.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Must have been an [indistinct].

GARY ADSHEAD: This is so - the public had no idea. You two, you're stuck with me till December. We'll speak soon.

DEAN SMITH: Looking forward to it.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Oh, Gary, we'll miss you when you're gone, but thank you.

GARY ADSHEAD: Take care.

DEAN SMITH: Best wishes, Gary.

GARY ADSHEAD: Madeleine King and Dean Smith.